NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #26

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was doubtful whether pubilc access for remote viewing would be reinstated but recent developments (as of mid May) suggest that this might actually become available again.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25

Yep judge and jury

I don't know if this was the case when Dr U filed the complaint, but Dr Kate Searle is Patient Safety Lead, amongst other roles. Astonishing that KS didn't think to pursue the alleged patient safety issues at least alongside the alleged 'hate incident,' since patient safety was her actual speciality lead role. Can't wait to hear the cross examination on that!

from Fife website:

Dr Kate Searle
Deputy Clinical Lead, Patient Safety lead, workforce lead

The patient safety stuff wasnt raised initially. Wasnt the whole thing about the phone and the meta data that DU exchanged emails with the BMA about whether to raise it, but deferred. Only raising the safety stuff later when it looked like Sp was to come back to work. NC seemed to be making the case that DU only raised the professional issues allegedly to keep her suspended. And remember that the peanut/resus incident was Halloween -31st Oct - and the “hate incident” was 24th Dec. Was it Feb/March before the hate stuff was raised which mixed up the non-investigation-first-investigation. Was it then May when it wasn’t resolved and SP’s solicitor wrote a letter? At which point “the” investigation began… All of which bore zero resemblance to the NHS Fife Disciplinary policy procedure… I’m now feeling sketch on the details so please shout if I’ve remembered wrongly

ETA KS was never an investigator

Oh yes, I know, I agree with what you are saying. It just seems incredible that KS was both the lead on the fellowship programme under which Upton was working AND was Upton's supervisor AND was (probably even then) the Patient Safety Lead, but somehow KS was never told about the supposed occasions when SP refused to work with Upton on A&E patients. I really want to hear the cross examination where all that is unpacked. Because if it really happened, it would be absurd for Upton not to report it at the time (even, or especially, just out of spite).

I don't know what I'm more excited for.

The end of the academic year (teacher)

Or

This tribunal reconvening?

Perhaps just best to say I'm greatly anticipation the end of July!

I will be keen to read the updates on MN. As Upton is suffering dysphoria and still hasn't had appropriate help to accept the truth, I expect the additional pressure of this pause (and Supreme Court news) has impacted his mental health further. Meanwhile, Sandie has the truth on her side and nothing to hide. Hopefully she will feel rested and keen to get through the next part.
The Darlington Nurses are also motivated to continue to fight for women's rights, which will be good for her to see.

Which toilet will DU use? Bet quite a lot of money it is the ladies’.

I imagine he is still using the female changing rooms at work since NHS Fife, along with some other public bodies, say they are waiting for official guidance from the EHRC before deciding what to do. Of course, there is no need for official guidance. The Supreme Court ruling was absolutely clear and, in any case, the EHRC has already issued interim guidance. This is simply an excuse to avoid complying with the law for as long as possible.

I know - the pressure must be awful. While obvs I am rooting for Sandie I wouldn't wish this process on my worst enemy and it must be horrible for DU

I can't be sympathetic at all towards DU for the simple reason that he was asked what he'd do if a female patient arrived in his consulting space/room who'd specifically requested a female doctor, and he said he's treat her unless she didn't object.

The reality being that the most assertive female patients might object but the more vulnerable are less likely to.

I'm not going to use the appropriate word to describe this behaviour but it isn't one that tends to attract my sympathy.

I do not give a shiny shit about Upton. He’s a misogynistic arrogant wanker who created this situation. I don’t actively wish him harm* but I don’t care if he is worried about the situation that he created.

*actual harm not the ‘literal violence’ of being correctly sexed or being told “no” by a woman.

Charlotte Elves makes me hope that the opposing team has a Bill Goblin and Sandra Trolls, or similar.

😂

set me off on a small train of thought -

Horatia Gnomes ... Pat Sprites ... Felicia Fairies ... Wilbur Wraith ...

Tommy Knocker.

I would have more compassion for Dr U if the case had been more straightforward and he had complained about an incident that happened because of a genuine clash of conflicting protected characteristics. There will be a lot of trans people who genuinely believed what Stonewall told them, who thought they had certain rights, and have now discovered they never had those rights at all. And as much as I am very glad for myself and for women, for the SC ruling, I do feel compassion for the trans people in a very precarious position right now.

I think Dr U will absolutely be suffering as a consequence of the case, but on the evidence, and lack of evidence, presented so far, it looks as though he brought most of his troubles on himself. Fife has acted atrociously, but if Dr U lied and fabricated his witness statements then it seems like a form of justice that it has exploded in his face.

Quite. It’s the horrible natural consequences thing - having to live with the path we chose ourselves. Must be mighty tough with all the scrutiny whilst knowing the chances of winning that tribunal are slim to none. I took the piss out of the support squad but DU’s defo going to need them!

The ET Press Lists are published a week in advance for the following week, so I am guessing that we can expect details of the case (and how to apply for online access) to be published from Monday 7th for cases from 15th? https://www.courtserve.net/courtlists/current/ets/indexv2et.php#viewlists

From the court documents on the TT substack (my paraphrase) there will be approx 100 allowed into each of 3 virtual rooms available to members of the public, and 100 in each of 2 virtual rooms reserved for approved family/friends/press. Each room supervised by a clerk and any no shows can be re-allocated to next on wait list.

Any disruption could lead to withdrawal of the individual concerned or withdrawal of online access altogether. I really hope that in practice this means that if there is any individual or collective (accidental or planned) disruption then the court will try to exclude those concerned this time, rather than pull the live stream altogether. It seemed at least possible that some of the 'naive' disrupters in February could have been trying to prevent wider public access. It should be enough to deter any interested parties from behaving badly if they know that the outcome will mean that they are excluded and their places given to others.

Oh Sinner, you didn't, did you ... you Went There.🙄
As soon as I saw the name Elves, I had similar thoughts but dismissed them as too obvious. It's bloody awful to have a name that people make jokes about.
I bet Charlotte has heard them all over the years, and is mightily fed up with them!

Thanks for such an informative post. It encouraged me to re-activate my Courtserve account.

I'm still quite wary of this being a slam dunk somehow.

Hand hold it will be fine 😀

I was late to the whole issue because i had “dropped out” for quite some time from political/active women's rights perspective.

The issue was bubbling up and I tried to ignore it all to rest my head from a long hard career in women’s services.

what i want to say there is nothing serendipitous about our very broad church movement.

there were the second wave feminists from the start of the GRA, the fortune of mumsnet as a place to get agitating.

Lots of terrible goings on

and then Women who were brave enough to start challenging.

Then the women in a position of power, be they lawyers, journalists, writers etc.

And the money from high and low.

i dont know who all the strategists are for sure, in the witches coven. But its obvious it exists, and there is a plan, being neatly executed.

like a rolling tank.

Velvet bulldozer is my go-to phrase for this sort of female action.

To watch remotely email

[email protected]

Subject line

Public Access request Mrs S Peggie v Fife/Dr Upton Case no: 4104864/2024 16th July 2025

Must request before 5pm on the 9th July

Please see instructions from the court to request access (below). Please note that numbers will be restricted, so only request access if you do intend to watch.

Remote access to the hearing is available for members of the public. Applications for permission to watch or listen to the proceedings remotely should be sent by email to [email protected]
by 5pm on Wednesday 09 July. Any previous requests for remote attendance prior to publication of this note will not be considered.

This email must include:

a. Case number in the subject line (see above);
b. In what capacity the applicant is attending e.g. Member of the public, Tribunal Tweets, second interested parties or professional purposes;
c. The full name of the applicant;
d. The email address of the applicant which will be used to join the remote hearing

His Majesty’s Court and Tribunal Service (HMCTS) will distribute separate details of remote access arrangements in due course for accredited media.

Members of the public who are granted remote access must agree that they will NOT share/forward the joining link to any other person and/or organisation.

Any person attending in person or remotely shall comply with all conditions or requirements for doing so specified by HMCTS, failing which consent to do so may be withdrawn.

Members of the public observing the hearing remotely must join the link 30 minutes prior to the start of the hearing. When joining, the OBSERVER option must be selected.
Please note that if remote access is granted, the link will be distributed shortly before the first day of the hearing.

Restrictions
You will not be permitted to record or take any images of the proceedings. Doing so will be considered contempt of court

I've observed before that they get their moobs out, scream and threaten women and piss everywhere.

We write nice polite letters, put our hands in our pockets for legal action and send thank you cards.