NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #26

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was doubtful whether pubilc access for remote viewing would be reinstated but recent developments (as of mid May) suggest that this might actually become available again.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25

Thanks both!

Just had a response. “The Tribunal asks that you request a space closer to the time of the hearing.” 🤷‍♀️

No mention of how near to the hearing.

They also said:

Information on how to observe the hearing will be made available in due course.

So maybe it will be an email out to everyone and then a scramble to send an email back for the 300 spots?

If an "inclusive" changing area is closer to the workplace that could still be illegal discrimination. Also the Judge did ask if it said women on the door and was told it did. I thought at the time that was a significant question, hence I remember it

I was wondering if the fact it wasn't the 'proper' changing room would be a problem for Sandie's case, but this makes it seems like it probably won't be?

It's going to be interesting to see how NHS proceed now. IIRC, when the case was delayed until July, JR made a comment that suggested they were banking on the Supreme Court judgment going in TRAs favour 😬

I know, that was my earlier response. The point is that I got two different responses.

Either way, I agree it’s going to be a scramble for places.

I had a log on last time but only managed to get log in once very briefly before the plug was pulled. My work free time just didn't line up - I was going to do the same this time but with spaces limited there is no point in me applying this time. It would either be taking a space from someone that could watch a lot more (if it is a total of 300 people to be given a log on ID) or all the spaces will be full by the time I'm free most days (if it is more the 300 to be given but only 300 to log on at a time). I will have to rely of TT and the brilliant commentary by the MN vipers.

I cannot be sure I will be free so am not going to try and get a place

But i would like to ask everybody who gets a place, to post here as much as possible as the commentary here really helps colour in the tweets.

Thanks in anticipation.

Second this request please. The commentary from here during the first half was absolutely critical for me to understand the context of everything that was going on.

I've also decided to not try getting a place as I'll be out and about too much and would rather any places are made full use of.

Any commentary done will be much appreciated.

Can someone please remind me of the email address and details required to request remote access?

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

This is still valid.

I’ll not be applying for a place either as I can’t guarantee my full attendance. But I’ll be on the threads faithfully.

Btw @prh47bridge thank you for your continuing observations on this case - much appreciated.

And a huge thank you to everyone else contributing to these threads too, especially @nauticant.

Yes second the thanks @prh47bridge for all your contributions, much appreciated.

Didn't want to start a new thread and wasn't sure where else to put this. The first link should be an archive link. I'm not sure why the formatting is different. Hope it works

Public money ‘at risk’ by failure to implement gender ruling https://share.google/Tlvq3qVAz2sqyDSx5

www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/supreme-court-trans-ruling-snp-latest-2blmqdbnj

I think it is appropriate on here, part of this case is about the cost to the tax payer.

I saw a section of the exchange on X and Michelle Thomson was excellent pointing out clearly that the law applies now and waiting is against EHRC advice.

What a SURPRISE this is about Scotland!

I just noticed that Sandie now has two barristers listed on one of the court documents provided by tribunal tweets. I don't know if this is common, am just hoping it doesn't mean NC is less available for the July hearing? https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L6yraYftK9fgwLD2gpcpqkFNa935srDC/view

Charlotte Elves is a young barrister who was called to the bar in 2022. She has been the junior barrister on SP's legal team for a while, led by NC.

I looked up who the second barrister is:
Charlotte Elves - Outer Temple Chambers - London
The website says:
Charlotte is credited as a robust and precise advocate, with a bedside manner which belies her relatively few years call.
Who writes this stuff??
Anyway, a good bedside manner is just what the doctor ordered in a case involving the NHS😄

Thank you! It seemed odd because Fife and Dr U share a barrister. But the workload caused by Fife's reluctance to provide required documentation must be enormous.

@prh47bridge Do we know if KS can be cross examined about her witness statement? You always said it was unlikely she'd be added as a respondent.

Yes, she can. Anyone who has provided a witness statement can be cross examined on it. Indeed, she must be cross examined on anything SP wishes to dispute, otherwise she is deemed to have accepted KS' evidence.

Great. I suspect there may have been a few holes in that statement.

If I remember rightly, KS had been called as a witness on a particular day and it had to be moved because DU was on the stand for longer than expected. So I think it is either her or Vic Valentine who are due to be up first after the re-start?

I'd forgotten about that. KS is likely to make a better witnesses than Upton but I cant see how she can possibly justify that email.