NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #24

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23

Re those HR departments mentioned on these threads who have talked about being "ahead of the law", they cannot now argue for an interpretation of the law that supports their current approach. They may think the law is wrong and should be changed, but they need to comply with the law as it stands. Failure to do so puts their organisation at risk of being prosecuted. Since the main thing organisations want from their HR department is advice to keep them on the right side of the law, continuing to flout the law would not be a good look.

It wouldn't put it past me for Dr Upton to try to challenge the word Biology - well, he has already done so, and NHS Fife would be daft enough to support him.

I think there will be a settlement - which in a way is a shame, because I think we were all
looking forward to seeing whether Fife had been as underhand and low (in what seemed to me like an orchestrated campaign against SP) as the last hearing seemed to be suggesting. Will anyone be held properly accountable?

Will Dr Upton also have to agree to any settlement as he's a named respondent?

The Supreme Court has helpfully defined the term "biological sex" to mean the sex of a person at birth. That blows Upton's arguments out of the water. He is, and always has been, a biological man.

SP might hold out against a settlement with the weight of today’s decision behind her, as well as (we think) JKR. So pitiless sunlight can expose the whole fiasco

I thought Fife had tried to settle already but this offer was refused?

My understanding from previous threads was that Fife had tried to settle out of court but Sandie Peggy wasn't having any of it.

If that's true, then it would depend on whether she changes her mind on that or not.

The Supreme Court is a step ahead of him on that one - they say that they mean the same by "biological woman" as "woman born a woman".

As someone just said while I was typing!

She could be liable for NHS Fife's costs from the time the offer is made if she unreasonably refuses an offer to settle. Of course, if her backers are prepared to fund this in order to complete Fife's humiliation, that won't be a problem.

Hope Peggie holds their feet to the fire 🔥

And what Fife was previously offering. That might ramp up considerably.

I’ve been through the whole court process myself, and it was hugely wearing - two solid years’ worth. It was very disruptive to family life and of course finances, and I was a changed person during those years - stress takes a toll. I wouldn’t blame anyone for settling to get their life back … but I hope the prospects here are so very clear SP feels
able to go on

NHS Fife and Sandie Peggie can settle without Upton's agreement. If he does not agree to the settlement, he can continue to defend the case on his own. He would, of course, only be defending his own actions, not those of NHS Fife, but I doubt he would want to go down that route.

I would have thought it would make sense for Peggie to get a ruling as Upton also made allegations against her re patient safety. As Fife were supporting Upton it makes it hard to untangle.

As the politicians say 'Let me make this quite clear':
SP must do what is best for her, obviously. She has shown such great courage to date, and we will support her in whatever she feels is right about accepting/not accepting a settlement if that's what pans out...

But in all honestly, who isn't relishing the thought of a resumed tribunal, post-today's-judgment?? Think of it - NC in full sail with the Supreme Court judgment at her back versus DrU the Biological Woman..

Presumably any settlement could include a public acknowledgement that the respondents were at fault?

I think they will now try to find a way to settle.

https://www.nhsfife.org/news-updates/latest-news/2025/04/response-to-the-uk-supreme-court-ruling-on-the-legal-definition-of-a-woman/

NHS Fife makes the following statement in response to the recent UK Supreme Court ruling on the legal definition of a woman.
A spokesperson for NHS Fife said: "NHS Fife notes the clarity provided by today’s Supreme Court ruling regarding the legal definition of a woman. We will now take time to carefully consider the judgment and its implications."

Yes, NHS Fife had made a settlement offer previously which Sandie Peggie turned down. From what I've read, not because of the amount of the offer, but because what she wanted was an apology

Imagine! A fucking hospital needing a court to clarify what a woman is 😡

I would expect her to want an apology, plus NHS Fife to ban Upton from the female changing rooms and take disciplinary action against him if he uses them again. They can, if they wish, provide a gender-neutral changing room that anyone can use as well as the male and female changing rooms, but they cannot allow him to continue using the female changing room.

Good point, I had forgotten about that - his accusations about endangering patient safety must be particularly unacceptable to SP, as a professional of so many years' good standing.
He deserves everything he gets for the downright nastiness of that - the 'I am a biological woman' can be dismissed as just plain daft, but false allegations of professional misconduct, obviously made just to bolster his case, are in a different league.
Thanks for reminding me about that aspect of the case.

NHS Fife must ackowledge they were wrong and apologise to her and reinstate single sex changing rooms.
They also need to admit that the accusations against her were unfounded and supporting this was harrasment. This might be a sticking point for them.

I was on holiday last week and, finally, managed to get hold of some postcards. They're surprisingly difficult to find where I live; not a holiday destination, post offices have closed or they're so expensive I'd rather donate the money. I don't know whether to send it now or wait until the next development.

they could possibly say some along the lines of " our policies were based on a genuine and non-malicious interpretation of the law. We are grateful for the clarity provided by the Supreme Court and acknowledge that our previous decisions, whilst implemented with good intentions, were incorrect. We would like to apologise to the complainant for any stress and inconvenience caused by our policies of allowing trans women to use the female changing faciltiy. Going forward we have set up a new working group to establish how we can best support all our staff and colleagues whatever their biological sex and however they identify."

That is creepily like what I imagine they would say 😳😳😳