NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #24

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23

Some time since I worked on the wards, but it was scrubs in midwifery in our hospital. Mind you, we didn't have any male patients at least. Quite a number of urology nurses were men: imagine the disappointment for some men when a male nurse turns up to catheterise them. 😉

Well the first newspaper article about it said about 20, so maybe the push on here and on X got a lot of people to fire off an email in a short space of time?

have you got a link for this?

I don't know about anyone else but I didn't realise until I saw it here a very few days ago that it was so urgent to fire off the email. I didn't know Fife were trying to exclude the public and Tribunal Tweets, nor that the decisions were being made so soon. So it makes sense that they might not have had many messages at first. Who knew we needed to say "Oi! No!" right now? So yes quite a lot of us might have sent our message late. I know I did.

@OhBuggerandArse

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/nhs-fifes-sandie-peggie-secrecy-35061125.amp

It was quite prominent on Twitter so I'm not surprised it was so many. Many people are quietly GC and many aren't virtue signallers so won't necessarily announce they've sent an email.I

Great effort wims!

An excellent comment from Clair Honnor: "The women that support these men have found a new way to seek male approval whist claiming to be feminist."

Good evening wonderful Mumsnetters. Thank you so much for writing to the Tribunal and for sharing some of your emails with us. We won't have a decision for a couple of weeks, but I'm confident we will prevail. Your support has been fantastic. From all of us all atTribunal Tweets

Two weeks! That is an awful length of time to make you wait - how frustrating.

Thank you again for all your work and for persevering in the face of nonsense.

Two weeks is optimistic. Might be longer. Fingers crossed.

As @OhBuggerandArse said, it is we who should be thanking you — you have shone a light on the biases and lack of transparency of mainstream media, and have made it clear to so many what it is that we are fighting for here. Brava, all of you!

(I am seriously wavering here between shone and shined. I am such a pedant I am reluctant to hit post…)

Thank you @Justabaker , for doing this for all of us.

Thank you all at Tribunal Tweets. Power to the people 💪

Imagine the need to conceal discussion on a known truth (men aren't women) to the extent that you try to hide the facts presented at court.
Seriously, some 'professional' people will have gathered and discussed hiding a lie behind closed doors rather than being open and dealing with the consequences.
We ask our DCs to be honest, but adults in positions of responsibility can mislead away and no doubt keep their titles and high wage packets.
They expect the rest of us not to see what they're doing?

Thanks, @Justabaker. Do you know whether the 2+ weeks is for a decision on all the applications (additional diacolsure etc), or just the access part?

It will be all the points raised.

It's going to be longer, judge said 'several' weeks at the end. My optimism on dates is a triumph of hope over experience.

Thanks both. I shall attempt to possess myself in patience.

At least there's FWS to distract me.today.

Which has found for For Women Scotland.

Surely NHS FIFE must go for a settlement now? There can be no justification for spending further public money on this.

Does someone need to bring a case specifically on the meaning of men and women in the 1992 H & S regs, which of course predated the GRA?

What a relief!

It will be interesting to see what the NHS Trusts do now. Surely they can't all carry on with the nonsense they've been putting out?

I don't believe in a God but, if I did, she's been looking down at the nonsense and had enough. Women are women!

I've only had a quick scan of the FWS judgement, but I don't think so. If anyone tries to argue that it doesn't refer to biological sex in court, I believe the court would be bound by this judgement by the Supreme Court. As I say, I haven't read the judgement in full, but that appears to be the case from the helpful summary the judges have included on pp84-86.

Yes, I think this is game over for NHS Fife. If I am right and the judgement means the 1992 Regulations refer to biological sex, NHS Fife was in breach of its legal duties by allowing Upton into the female changing room. Their actions against Peggie are therefore unlawful in my view (this was, of course, my view even before this judgement, but there now seems to be no wriggle room at all).