NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #24

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23

No-one really knows if NHS FIFE have offered a settlement or not - but if they have it would need to include a grovelling apology over the patient safety accusations and for those to be withdrawn. If they are not willing to do that then it's not unreasonable for Sandie to refuse any settlement offer and costs should reflect that.

IANAL - not sure what happens in court if NHS FIFE admit they were wrong over the toilets but try to claim patient safety issues still apply. I dont see how you could separate them.

Very keen to know what was on Upton's phone - who else he was making notes about and when exactly he made them. Really hope the court also think that it's a critical part of this case and the phone has been forensically examined.

I agree that is quite creepy. But also as one of @KnottyAuty audit team almost all the NHS policies I have read have got gender ideology deeply woven into the grain [so to speak]. I think it is going to take a bit more than a working group to disentangle it all.

My money's on a BS response from NHS Fife along these (AI generated for the lolz) lines
Our approach to policy implementation has consistently been grounded in a sincere and well-intentioned interpretation of the prevailing legal framework. We appreciate the recent clarification provided by the Supreme Court, which has offered valuable insight into the complexities of this evolving area.
While prior decisions were made in alignment with our commitment to fostering an inclusive environment, we recognise the importance of recalibrating our practices in light of this new guidance. We regret any unintended impact experienced as a result of these practices and remain committed to maintaining a respectful and supportive workplace for all.
To that end, we have established a cross-functional working group tasked with reviewing current procedures and developing a robust strategy to ensure the ongoing wellbeing of all employees, with consideration for both sex-based and identity-based factors.

I think it gives the staff and board members at NHS Fife a get out card. Their jobs were on the line for the absolute mess. Now they have a way to move forward by claiming this newfound clarity - "not our fault guv".

But Dr Upton will have to find somewhere new to change.

No settlement can compensate for what SP has been put through.
What she was accused of and how they treat her.
I know Sandie will have to do whatever is best for her, but I really, really want to see the full (open justice) court case unfold.

And I d love to see the contents of the fragrant doctor's phone history!

I think so too. Oh we didn't know, we weren't sure, we thought we were acting in the right vein.

Whatevs

Apart from the 'man in a women's changing room' issue, there's also the accusations of endangering patient safety (from what I recall, by allegedly acting in a discriminatory manner to a trans person) which would still be in contention, as well as the issue of not following the appropriate disciplinary procedure (particularly in regard to indiscriminate circulation of possibly defamatory emails).

So even if NHS Fife admit they were wrong to discipline her over objecting to a man in the single-sex area, there are still other issues to be resolved.

It's the Doctor that gets me. Surely he has a Nat 4 in biology?
Male Female is kind of basic stuff.

So even if NHS Fife admit they were wrong to discipline her over objecting to a man in the single-sex area, there are still other issues to be resolved.

I agree. He said she put patients in danger by refusing to work with him, and that he had made notes about it, on his phone.

That's got absolutely nothing to do with whether or not he's allowed to use the women's changing room.

As Naomi said, an accusation like that is career ending for the person if it's upheld, and career ending for the other person if it's lies.

And he is a respondent in his own right.

This Supreme Court decision can't be something that would make him say I'm sorry I made a mistake.

Sandi Peggie, a tiny lady now with weight of the Supreme Court at her back. I hope you are enjoying your day.

Keep fighting on, 💪 you can do this!!!

Just heard phoebe on LBC freely admitting he's a gay man who requires women's spaces for his own safety.

seriously.

These men are utterly incapable of viewing women as anything other than solutions to their issues.

It is dreadful that the threat of male on male violence leaves so many males in fear of using spaces such as male toilets.

I think we all agree that men should be able to use the (men's) loo in a pub without fear of being assaulted or worse.

It doesn't sound like women are any part of that problem or the solution tho.

Hopefully the male changing rooms have cubicles in which transwomen can change if they feel uncomfortable (or maybe use the toilets or a storecupboard). I’d need to check back, but I think the defendants themselves came up with that suggestion for Sandie so it clearly can’t be a problem.

They could just hang up a curtain for privacy.

Something that has been suggested to woman on a number of occassions

Oh dear, I see my post about hoping Dr Upton is no longer able to use their? changing room of choice has been deleted.
Pronoun police?

It'll be the seething misogynist monitors trying to seize back any semblance of control.

Sorry MM's, the gig is up!

So, Supreme Court judges think "biological sex" is not a dogwhistle but a precise and useful phrase and the basis for the Equality Act 2010. Tut. What nebulous thinkers those judges must be!

@BuntyBeaufort Dr Upton will find that the law is much clearer about his lack of GRC and the presence of his XY chromosomes and what that means for women who don't want to share their changing area with a bloke. I imagine there will be lots of sanctimonious word salad coming the public's way from him as a result, but hey ho - courage, mes femmes, courage.

The Supreme Court has helpfully defined the term "biological sex" to mean the sex of a person at birth. That blows Upton's arguments out of the water. He is, and always has been, a biological man.

& always will be a biological man.

Presumably any settlement could include a public acknowledgement that the respondents were at fault?

How grovelling would the apology need to be & what promised disciplinary actions on those who treated Sandie Peggie so badly would need to be promised before a settlement would be accepted?

Where can I donate?

In court ignorance of the law is no defence. Therefore NHS FIFE can plead they werent the only ones who were not clear but it's not a legal defence.

If I was NHS FIFE I think I'd be trying to end the disciplinary process against Sandie for the patient safety claims - so probably in their interest for Upton's phone to be examined so they can (or can try to) shift the blame to him for lying to them.

@prh47bridge NHS FIFE have put Sandie's future career at risk. Is it unreasonable to refuse an offer that doesnt compensate her up to retirement age? I doubt they will offer that and anything short of that doesnt deal with all the issues, unless they offer to terminate the disciplinary process for the patient safety claims.

And maybe, just maybe, the Supreme Court judgment will be the trigger for removing Annex B from the NHS policy on single-sex wards (spoiler - Annex B means there aren't any.)

https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/05/NEW-Delivering_same_sex_accommodation_sep2019.pdf

I was shocked when I read it the first time and I'm still shocked by it. The NHS is one of the maddest organisations when it comes to sex and gender.