NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #24

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23

Cross examination suggests their legal defence is Mrs Peggie was a nasty meanie not complying with our (illegal) policy and being cruel to a poor vulnerable and marginalised person. Cant imagine what their defence is going to be now - the law was confusing maybe.

Wasnt sure Sandie was going to win with the "protected disclosure" line but that seems impossible to defend now. They have indicated with the disciplinary hearing that they might want to bring up more totally unfounded safety concerns so I guess they may try to run that but really the only sensible course of action is a gushing apology in court, if they havent managed to settle before then.

and being cruel to a poor vulnerable and marginalised person.

By not shutting up and taking her clothes off to make him happy.

I have never quite understood the “protected disclosure” bit. Could someone explain what this is please?

https://www.acas.org.uk/whistleblowing-at-work

Ah I see now it’s whistleblowing about a biological man using the female changing rooms.
Thanks you @KnottyAuty that makes sense now.
Hmmm not quite sure how Fife are defending that one!!

The only line of defence I thought possible is that I believe Sandie was advised to use another space to change in. She refused. I think it was Upton who should have been offered an alternative arrangement rather than Sandie but still...

They want to say that Sandie’s speech (use of the word man) in the CR was harassment and not a protected disclosure. It was less clear that DrU shouldn’t have been there. So Prior to the SC ruling that could have been tricky to land - but now it looks like a slam dunk.

I think that Sandie Peggie would settle if NHS Fife offered a full apology covering all of their wrongdoing and accepted responsibility without reservations.

However, I have doubts about whether they'd be able to bring themselves to make such a clear and public rejection of gender ideology. Like we've seen with other captured organisations, it's better to lose horribly, having wasted a massive amount of money, in order to signal ideological purity.

I think it will be difficult for NHS Fife and Upton to say 'sorry, we were totally wrong in every way regarding the CR issue AND we upped the ante by falsely accusing SP of dangerous incompetence. Big whoops'.

I hope that it can be shown that there are no grounds to this allegation. It’s probably too much to hope that if Upton did make it up it could be proven and Upton would face a disciplinary.

Tricky because iirc Upton has stood in court and asserted all this under oath has he not?

He did, yes.

He also said he was a biological woman. So some of his under oath evidence is a wee bit ropey at least.

I do hope they get permission to look at his phone. It will be most interesting!

Me too! And also I think the Supreme Court ruling adds to the case that KS should be a respondent.

I suppose their defence that Stonewall insisted that they "get ahead of the law," ie break the law, which is now ironclad. As others have noted, ignorance of the law is no defence.

There is a brilliant cartoon on this, but I'm not sure if we can now add images. It shows Dr Upton in the changing room with Sandie and says " why wont you take your clothes off, you're making me feel unsafe"

One of the "patient safety" concerns was denied by another person who was present - i.e. Dr Upton's recollection did not match that of Sandie's or of the other person present. Not sure now if that is the one where Dr Upton cant even say what month it was in, despite supposedly having made notes at the time. Dr Upton said in court that there was nothing Sandie could have done that would have been acceptable to him. Quite clear that NHS FIFE did not carry out a fair investigation (either investigation) so they are bound to lose that one. Dreaming up new stories is going to look pretty vengeful so not clear that anyone in NHS FIFE could now conduct a fair investigation.

The issue is Fife can't just settle, there's the Wee Lady with the might of the Supreme Court at her back who needs to agree to settle.

And after what they have put her through, I hope she stands firm, just to watch them squirm, when they try to put forward a defence.

Is that likely to affect any possible payout?

His phone content? It may prove he was colluding with others (either internal or external) as to how to make her look bad. ETA: or show his evidence to not be entirely true re his notes / their content. Which won't help him / Fife in relation to claims against them. So may potentially lead to a higher settlement than the sex discrimination alone.

I don't practise employment law, but if the phone proves another allegation which may otherwise remain unproven (on the balance of probabilities) then I can't see that it would do anything other than boost damages.

If it emerges - and I would not be surprised if it did - that there has been collusion between Upton, hospital management and even perhaps the BMA to exaggerate and/or fabricate elements to shore up the case against SP then that takes the case to another level.

What I said, but in fewer words! 🤣

Apologies @NoWordForFluffy - I’ve actually just realised there have been a whole load of posts since I last checked this thread. Had managed to drag myself away from Mumsnet!!! I’ll catch up now.

No, I found it amusing about my own verbosity! 🤣

Re. patient safety iirc he didn't report his allegations until it was advantageous to him. I've posted this before but liability often lies with acts and omissions. If he saw someone doing something, or not doing something they should be doing, that was dangerous, negligent, incompetent he was obliged to report it immediately. Otherwise he may be able to mitigate but he's in the dock with Sandie.

Continuation thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25