NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #24

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23

Good for you, @Szygy

I find it hard to believe all these canvassers who say they've 'never thought about it'. How can they not have done when the issue is everywhere? Do they not follow any news or sports? If not, how are they in a fit state to know what's happening in the country?

It’s bizarre, isn’t it? Were they not even aware of what’s been happening to Rosie Duffield, which surely must be a big deal within the party?

They’re most likely lying, as they know it’s a hot potato and they’re shitting themselves about saying the wrong thing and getting into trouble. There’ll probably also be the odd one who’s totally drunk the Kool Aid and has yet to catch up/so open minded their brains have fallen out.

Well done for bringing it up, Szygy! It does feel like there's some movement back to reality, doesn't it?

I did the same during the last general election in Ireland, and I was pleasantly surprised at the open or even positive response I got from canvassers and even from the odd candidate.

In fact, I got the impression that some of the canvassers had never actually thought about sex vs gender/single sex spaces/women's rights as opposed to gender rights, and were a bit wrong-footed when I told them how absolutist their party's policy on Self ID etc was!

These are all small but important victories, Szygy, let's keep plugging away

I really feel I want to be 30 again. And a millionaire. But I'm not, so there we are.

And ven if that were a sufficient criterion, how does the canvasser propose distinguishing between men who really feel they want to be women and men who just say that they really feel they want to be women?

At least the actual candidate had a few more brain cells. And very well done for raising it.

Actually dont think the woman who canvassed me before the last election had really thought about it. She listened when I talked about children being told there was something wrong with their body and how their candidate supported harming children so I couldnt vote for them. She said she'd raise it with the candidate, I hope she wasnt expelled from the party.

Just doing a bit of advertising for the NHS Policy Audit group over on this thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5291237-nhs-policy-audit-working-party?page=12

We finished the Scottish trusts last week and (all being well) there will be national press coverage tomorrow.

Very exciting that we might help make a difference from our collective sofas.

Some keen beans have already started chipping away at the list of English trusts. Even if you can only do one or two that would be fab.

Please come on over to our thread and DM me for the online survey link. It is all completely anonymous. I won't know who or where you are so I can guarantee total discretion.

All help gratefully received xx

The last Labour canvasser that turned up at my door had to admit ( after a few probing questions from me ) that she worked for the NHS as a Voice Therapist for transgender people. There was nothing left to say after that.

I’m pretty unhappy about the allocation of that resource - DS has had speech therapy in his EHCP for 7 years and had precisely zero. So it’s upsetting to know that the therapists have moved off into trendier areas other than autistic kids 🙄 can’t imagine their caseload is particularly stacked…

@ArabellaScott
"The best we can manage is some attention-seeking actresses having a haircut and declaring themselves “non-binary”"

Snort!

Ah, a flurry of recent posts on the previous thread have filled that up, it seems.

@ArabellaScott said, quoting Suzanne Moore in the Telegraph:

"In truth, this “movement” was always a forced coalition between male fetishists and distressed teenage girls. If gender identity was someone’s true identity suppressed for years, why do we find it mostly in middle-aged men who finally get to wear frilly knickers? Was this absurdity not obvious? We do not suddenly have a generation of middle-aged women declaring themselves to be men. The best we can manage is some attention-seeking actresses having a haircut and declaring themselves “non-binary”

I just copied that bit out, too, duc.
I wonder how it feels to realise you've been publically championing the rights of male fetishists over safeguarding?
Cheerleading for the rights of Isla Bryson, rapist, to be housed in a women's prison. For Eddie Izzard, cross dresser, to access women's toilets. For Jordan Grey to expose his penis on Iive TV?

The sad truth is, we see so little proper journalism these days, that actually tells people what the hell is going on.

I can't remember it exactly, but didn't somebody say that good journalism is not giving a balanced statement on whether the weather is good or bad, it's sticking your head out the bloody window and reporting if it's raining!😄

When our now MP knocked on my door I got "it's not like in the Daily Mail" and that he had a daughter and wouldn't let anything bad happen to her. He spoke over both me and the woman with him who mentioned the changing rooms in Primark.

He did reply straight away to my email saying how upset I was at being talked over on my own doorstep but it was a very Russel Moyle style none apology. In fact I wondered if he made it as reminiscent of his wording as he could, just to piss me off.

He's now blocked because he loves a photo op and I get flashbacks to him looming angrily over me at my door when I see one of his frequent posts.

Just thought @KnottyAuty’s hard work should be showcased on here as well, in case anyone missed it on the last thread: this is the Telegraph article based on the NHS trust policy survey that Knotty spearheaded:

“Ok here's the first article:

https://archive.is/Xjf8e

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/03/25/bearded-trans-women-treated-female-wards-scottish-nhs/

Well done everyone for helping with the audit xx”

Thanks for the new thread @nauticant

Things are looking up!

It's a scandalous waste of very finite resources, much needed by children such your DS.

Knotty I'm another who is utterly appalled by the speech therapy situation. I'm so sorry, and so angry, reading about your DS.

I always thought male voices and female voices exist because of biology. I don't understand how speech therapy can make a real difference in changing biology.
I understand if someone needs help with speech itself, for example to pronounce certain sounds, but forcing a tonal difference isn't sustainable- is it?

Thatcher dropped her voice to be taken more seriously. You can, to a certain extent, learn to speak in a different register (or to extend your singing range). Although it usually ends up sounding somewhat artificial, and there's a limit to how far it's possible to shift.

Brilliant work getting that in the Telegraph, Knotty et al! Tremendous work.

There are gender-stereotyped way of speaking, intonation, choice of words, gestures, that sort of thing.

I agree that this is definitely not a good use of limited speech therapy resources.

Overall, yes, although the small number of brave and principled journalists now working on this issue show that the profession is a little more resilient than the BBC's appalling decline might suggest.

Bear in mind those who have left certain jobs so that they could report during the years when it was verboten.

If I were a journo I'd also be looking at the meta story of how the 4th estate has colluded and conspired to prop up gender ideology. It's a big story.

Also, ahem, citizen journalists:

'Shock new research by popular forum Mumsnet has suggested that NO NHS Scotland health board offers single-sex facilities'

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/mumsnet-research-claims-no-nhs-34931261.amp

👏👏👏👏👏

Agreed that is a big story - and you veterans here will have a lot of good data to help write it… I feel another thread coming on 🤣

Seriously tho if you built a thread to show a timeline of the decline that would be very powerful.

It’s clear there’s a growing number of journalists who will write about it. They’re time poor on the evidence gathering so that’s where we can help

If you’re on Twix, lawyer Dennis Kavanagh has quite a few long threads (and I think a substack?) on some aspects of how we got here. None are easy reading. And they only tangentially look at press involvement. So it is definitely a worthwhile angle.