NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #26

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was doubtful whether pubilc access for remote viewing would be reinstated but recent developments (as of mid May) suggest that this might actually become available again.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25

Tomayto - tomahto…

Actually, thinking of what happened to the testicles, forget I said that.

I can't decide between the laugh emoji or the one being sick @TwoLoonsAndASprout

😂😂😂

I will never stop missing the laugh reaction emoji.

These photos are wonderful. Thank you for sharing the link. Great work by Brindys Blackadder

Brindy's photos are great. Is anyone thinking of going along to support Sandie on Wed morning? I could make it there but honestly worried about repercussions if my employer sees my ugly mug on any coverage...

Them photos brung a tear to my eye.

Lovely photos and inclusion of Sandie's message, "my dignity as a female is important to me".
What an odd world where a female has her dignity attacked and has to go to court to try for justice while everyone around knows she is right: Upton is clearly male and needs mental health support.
The human complex to think we're superior than other animals falls on the most basic principle. Other animals don't pretend sex isn't real.

Wes Streeting on LBC - sorry I’ve only got the X link https://x.com/soniasodha/status/1943417803861856311?s=61&t=W8z-NdrPTYy21FuiQuezcw

He is talking about language and how important it is to be correct, pointing out articles etc don’t use the word woman e.g. in relation to smears, but in the same article use “men”.

What he said is “ There’s this really powerful word called “and””. The interviewer said so “women and trans men” and he said exactly.

I really think he is genuinely trying to turn around theNHS use of language.

The most mental thing about it is £220k for an Employment tribunal vs £160k for ScotGov and the Supreme Court case.

£380k on lawyers over what is or isn't a woman - wtf 😳

Oh I don't think any of us have sympathy for them for their behaviour in the case. The 'fairness' discussion was (for my part anyway) just around the apportioning of legal costs. The indemnity scheme is there for issues like these and, in principle, any NHS body with the same policy could have found themselves in the firing line.

Outside of the legal costs, everyone involved in the case is paying the marvellous cost of having their rash decisions and dubious witness statements published in the press across the world, and they deserve every bit of the mortification that brings to them.

InvisibleDragon · Today 12:43

Popping back up after a long absence to say the CNORIS thing is absolutely infuriating

Thanks for your further explanation. We need to file that and ask how much their excess is after the conclusion of this sordid affair.

Please can someone remind me - when does the Fife shitshow get back on the road Sandy Peggie case return to court? Is it Monday 14th? I can't join the livestream but will follow from a distance on MumsNet and TT probably with my jaw on the floor

Wednesday 16th at 10am
which probably means 10.30 on UK Court time

I shall be at work during most of it but will try to pop on and off here throughout the day.
Hopefully someone will be copying over from TT again.

I confess to not really having been on this section of Mumsnet much before the NHS Fife shitshow tribunal but I was in awe of how dedicated posters on here managed to bring this case to life for us all in real time, even if my jaw hit the floor at times! I’ve been a regular here since.

Thank you everyone and particularly to @nauticantfor hosting us.
I can’t imagine how Sandie is feeling right now but I hope she can feel our support from afar

The indemnity scheme bankrolling this case for Fyfe will surely be demanding prudence on their part. They won't allow them to continue with a lame duck case.

The mismanagement of NHS Fife are also covering Upton’s costs as well. He gets to play a key part in this media storm at no financial cost to himself. His only costs are to his reputation and questionable understanding of human biology

The indemnity scheme is the NHS too. It is really a cost sharing scheme between sectors of the NHS, not a private indemnity insurance.

This insistence on the idea that what's in your pants defines your sex is a very male-centric view: the thing that 'counts' being obvious and visible. Much of what defines the sex of a woman is internal, where babies are conceived and grown.

Anyone know where Sandie is employed now and if we can still send cards c/o NHS FIFE for her?

She's still employed by Fife, but has been on sick leave following the Feb tribunal. Her daughter posted a thank you with photos of the postcards, flowers etc sent to her, and you can see from those that the cards were addressed to the Vic Hospital, so they must have arrangements in place to send them on to her.

So the real facts are this. NHS Fife has cost NHS Scotland 200 odd thousand pound, but most of it has been bounced off to the other NHS trusts.

And NHS Fife are glad about that? They should be hanging their heads in shame that their abject fuckery is costing the other trusts untold thousands, instead of trying to weasle-ily imply they got all this top end legal cost at a bargain price and it will barely cost a bawbee.

I'm so mad right now. There needs to be some reckoning in the responsible employees and board members.

Fife are in a very weak position - they are attempting to defend themselves (and Upton) and at the moment they appear to have a choice between (a) admitting all their failings and issuing a grovelling apology to SP, rewriting several policies, and compensating SP, and (b) continuing to dig their hole deeper. Upton's involvement as a respondent complicates matters, and may in itself ensure that the case continues, as SP and her team will surely want his accusations of professional misconduct to be completely refuted.

So the real facts are this. NHS Fife has cost NHS Scotland 200 odd thousand pound, but most of it has been bounced off to the other NHS trusts.

No, no, no, NHS Fife has cost NHS Scotland much more than that. We still have a couple of weeks of costs to incur in court. Plus there will be compensation due and potentially having to pick up some of Sandie’s costs too - I would think those for the next two weeks at minimum as the extra time arises from their refusal to follow a court direction.

If, God forbid (and I don’t see how, especially given the SC ruling), Sandie loses, then there would be appeal costs too.

Yes indeed. 200 odd thousand so far I should have said.

So the real facts are this. NHS Fife has cost NHS Scotland 200 odd thousand pound, but most of it has been bounced off to the other NHS

Yes @BezMills the FOI question the journalists should be asking of Scot Gov is How much has this case cost the public purse?