NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #26

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was doubtful whether pubilc access for remote viewing would be reinstated but recent developments (as of mid May) suggest that this might actually become available again.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25

Why do we need to be fair for NHS Scotland. They are still liable for ensuring equality of all staff.

I don't get why we are supposed for sympathy for people who haven't done their fucking job properly.

That’s very interesting. Thanks for posting

Isn’t it interesting that even generally supportive husbands who say they get the whole sex realist position and agree with us, still perceive us as “angry”, “opinionated”, and “ranty”.

I mean, mine claims that me being feisty and knowing my own mind is part of the attraction to me. I’ve been known as the blunt, bolshy Northerner all my adult life, and now I’m post menopausal any ducks I ever had to give have long since gone. So I’m not upset by the description, but a bit bemused that he seems surprised by my depth of feeling.

I just think their HR were stuck between a rock and hard place. The issue is further up the tree and a First Minster with 3 categories of males, men, trans and rapist.

What were they ment to follow, the law or the policies pushed down by their employer, ie ScotGov.

It’s such a deep wound - there are many who don’t seem to grasp. The men seem to be obsessed with genitals and what’s in your pants defines your sex. I don’t know about anyone else but that’s really not what I think about it! It’s not a feeling either - it’s a state of being - it’s my bodily reality and a nervous system that carries out womanhood (like breathing) without any conscious intervention on my part! Ridiculous that some think it’s hair and nails - fecking rude

I am not so sure the indemnity covers any pay out they may have to make.

Well I can only speak for my profession but a piece of advice a boss gave me early on was “no one ever gets sacked for following the law” when other colleagues wanted to be a bit more, er, entrepreneurial. I’ve followed it and it’s never let me down.

Oddly my wife while generally supportive thinks that as the number of transexuals is so small it is not an issue & that people i.e. me shouldn't so get obsessed about something that is so fringe. She doesn't want men with a penis in the Ladies but is happy to accommodate men if they have had their penis removed.

I’ve had some success pointing out the situational awareness all women have had to develop since the age of 10, but consciously and unconsciously.

He was raised to be chivalrous, eg walk on the outside of the pavement, always see a girl/woman home safely after a night out. But I think it was an eye opener that our personal safety isn’t just about walking down unlit paths at night - it’s a constant radar evaluating men in my vicinity. That a random “smile darling” can turn into a vicious verbal attack or worse if you don’t respond in the “right” way. Choosing the right seat on the bus or train or in the cafe, making eye contact or not, when to remove yourself from a situation if you feel uncomfortable even if you can’t articulate why you feel uncomfortable. And none of this means that I’m in fear when I’m out in public, it means that I’m vigilant and aware.

I think he’d never really thought through the consequences of women being physically smaller and weaker than men.

No they aren't.

They can do what all the other women who have had to safeguard this have done.

They are paid to safeguard.

If they aren't prepared to safeguard when there is a problem, they are in the wrong job.

Yeah but the ECHR said you can't do that.

So you have to go to the lowest bar, rather than the carer for those who have had surgery. Because that's how safeguarding works.

I should stress "I was just following orders" is not a legal defence.

Do we think that SP’s team is going to peruse the Upton claim about professional misconduct? Or is Upton just going to be let off the hook on that?

That sounds good at first glance - but it's just not enforceable. How much surgery is OK - can you add a neo-vagina and retain the penis etc etc The rules have to be idiot proof. Maybe tell her to google Non Binary Surgeries - the pages of the London private clinics - oh my eyes - but it has made me realise that the surgical route is really not as "clear cut" (pardon the pun) as I first thought

Dear auto correct it's not ducks, it's never ducks.

🦆 🦆 🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆🦆

It is a key part of the case - that the accusations were/are a significant "detriment" to SP

Did Upton claim he made a phone all to register the concern but no one logged the call? Or is it just a note he made on the day? Or was his phone lost in the North Sea?

so long since the first hearing

In case anyone else is particularly invested, this is the CNORIS annual report:
https://www.nss.nhs.scot/media/5856/cnoris-annual-report-2023-2024-published.pdf

From a cursory glance, it looks like the average value of a claim is about 135k, which NHS Fife has already clearly exceeded.

Incidentally, the largest individual contribution to claims from OBS/gynae incidents. If only there was some way we biological females could identify out of medically negligent experiences.

I have had conversations with several other women who all take the stance that they are OK with men in the ladies provided they have had full bottom surgery. I try & point out that while they may be happy with mutilated males in the Ladies that they cannot make decisions for other women but they just dismiss the issue as unimportant.

I agree but it does seem to be a stance taken by a significant number of women.

Have you asked them how they can tell if a man has had his penis amputated just by looking at them (assuming said man is not naked)?

I don't think that it's a coherent stance. I think that they are just talking in principle. The assumption is that only male transexuals who have had full surgery will go in the Ladies & those with a penis will stay out because they are decent men.😀

If TRAs been willing to compromise: SRS for GRC, no TW in women's sports, no medical intervention for minors, I think there's no question they could have kept popular opinion on their side, and GCs would have remained a minority view. But no compromise on anything less than self-ID and TWAW ultimately brought us to this point. In someways GCs should be grateful for their extremism.

Have you ever shown them videos of the delightful Sarah Jane? Pretty sure he’s post-“op”.

Does removing your own testicles while serving a 30-year prison sentence count as an 'op'?