NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #26

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was doubtful whether pubilc access for remote viewing would be reinstated but recent developments (as of mid May) suggest that this might actually become available again.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25

'Outing' is the new misgendering. It's literal violence!

Actually it sounds like something a bunch of tras brainstormed one weekend. Something to use as leverage to make common sense solutions difficult to implement.

Think if i was an employee i might have to kick of about being outed as “cis gender”

It’s a post like this where I really miss the laughing reaction. Thanks for this!

I think the easy response to this is that all allies can also use the third space facilities to provide air cover. What a nice practical way of helping?!

MassiveWordSalad · Today 14:26

It boggles my mind that Fife have/had a case-by-case basis for allowing trans-identifying men to use the women’s changing rooms.

It must have been a case of:

We've a transw, a new case. Of course you must use the women's facilities, dear

Case by case was supposed to be the overall case not individuals. So the case would be for example- is this an area where staff change into work uniforms? Yes then it must be single sex. That's the regulations.

It was interpreted as referring to each person and has just been 'does this person want access? Yes so let's allow that'

Case by case was supposed to the situation not the individual, then it was claimed that for things like prisons it was was case by case as in the individual. Then the world noticed that case by case in prisons let be-leggined rapists in to the female estate and suddenly the heat was cranked up a notch or two.

Yes. This was the SW interpretation, which was widely spread and which enabled then the enactment of 'justify to the last decimal place the saying no to this man' demonstrated by the quote from Clare above, making it clear that stupid things like women's interests and needs and access were irrelevant if there was a man she could be pedestalling.

The yank back to it being simply 'is there a case for making this single sex which discriminates against the other sex? Yes? In which case it's for that sex only. End of.' Not emotional. Not personal. Third space the obvious caring option.

And the GI lobby has demonstrated to the last decimal place why women desperately need that line against men to be that hard and that immovable.

Yes, so many of them decided to act as though case by case meant per individual. Look at Tangential's school case, for a current example. If laypeople like us can see it, how do all the clever bastards and lawyers manage to delude themselves?

The wonderful @SeaStoat, on the NHS trust audit thread, has posted that the NHS Confederation, which represents trusts, has quietly withdrawn guidance telling hospitals that they should allow trans people to use their chosen toilets and changing rooms.

https://archive.ph/4Imvo

Sex Matters is pushing for the NHS Confederation to explicitly tell the NHS Trusts that the guidance has been withdrawn, rather than quietly cobwebbing it.

Do you know if the guidance also explicitly says single sex facilities must be provided e.g. for changing rooms?
(Otherwise they could make every area unisex?).

@Bannedontherun Think if i was an employee i might have to kick of about being outed as “cis gender”

This is actually worth emphasizing. Trans people don't have a special right to privacy, they have the same right to privacy that everybody does. And you exchange that right in order to access single sex services. It's your right not to disclose the fact your 'cis gender' if you don't want to, but that means using unisex facilities.

Interesting article about the press and changed attitudes which have affected the Tribunal coverage:
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-nhs-fife-case-raises-questions-for-the-scottish-press/

Archive link:

archive.is/iN2LY

Can someone doorstep Andrew Thacker, the individual who doubled down on their trans policy after the RCN wrote to him? He really ought to be asked ‘What are you playing at?’ It's not just the Scottish press.

Exactly. Great post.

Could there be a gardening fund for freelance doorstepping journalism?! I’d defo muck in for that

Do you know if the guidance also explicitly says single sex facilities must be provided e.g. for changing rooms?
(Otherwise they could make every area unisex?).

@Enough4me workplace regulations mean employers must provide single sex changing and toilets, which is what NHS Fife thought they were doing but they let a male bodied person in. If its a tiny employer eg. a cafe they can have a lockable self contained room as it’s only used by 1 person at a time.
But there’s no way NHS Fife could do that, legally they have to provide single sex and can also provide some unisex single lockable rooms if they want to.

To add - the HSE Regs also talk about "sufficient" facilities which is why the Darlington situation with all the females in a tiny cupboard while "Rose" uses the full sized changing room (alone?) is legally unacceptable.

For NHS Fife the female changing room was actually in the basement. There was also another nearby cupboard to the locker room which was offered up to staff who "wanted more privacy". There was early speculation that Fife would attempt to use these other spaces as a gotcha. But no. Instead they decided to put their neck entirely on the block - attempting to argue that Upton was as a trans identifying male entitled to be in the female facility.

Obvs the Nasty Bitch Terf space must be much nastier and grottier than the space the man is offered. It's grudging enough she gets anything at all, but the man will go berserk and the rainbows will scream and melt if he cannot see that obviously he has been treated Much Much Better Than Her.

If nurses want nice facilities then they have to earn them by taking off their clothes for men.

I wish I was exaggerating about all this. It baffles me that this is all, seriously the case, and it isn't some kind of ghastly horrible joke. Or nightmare.

NHS still up to its old tricks in Darlington. Nurses in trans case claim hospital continues to flout law

https://www.thetimes.com/article/dc1fb557-582b-48c5-a0ce-719ccd7802ca?shareToken=eaf1fb6b89558da8b7809ae2dc64be1e

This may have already been noted but the man called Rose has probably had a childhood that influenced his choices...
Teacake on X post:
"Trans identified children are 10x more likely to have a sex abuser parent.
As discovered by @hannahsbee in Time to Think."
Linked with le sorelle arduino's post:
"This is the father of “Rose” who insisted that Darlington Nurses should let him into their changing rooms.
Tyler/Rosalie Henderson’s father Dale will appear at Teeside Court on Monday to stand trial for:
Indecent assault on a girl under 14
Two counts of gross indecency with a boy under 14
Incite a girl under 14 to commit an act of gross indecency
Attempted rape of a female under 16"

That's so horrendous and Rose is most likely a vulnerable and traumatised person, all other stuff aside.

I’d probably leave out the word vulnerable there. He knows full well his presence is distressing but chooses to roll with it anyway because his feeling matter most.

My sympathy for him is nil. Past trauma doesn’t excuse creepy imposing behaviour and selfishness at all. One of the female nurses has past trauma, and manages not to make others uncomfortable for her own pleasure.

All of which is fair comment.

A lot of bad people have had bad backgrounds - it's a thing.

Does the man called Rose want to replicate things he's seen; humiliate like he's been humiliated?
Not saying he's right, of course, but could this give insight into why he wants to hurt others?
I have no sympathy but think, if he'd had mental health support and told "no" you're not the opposite sex, there would be a better outcomes for everyone.