NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #26

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was doubtful whether pubilc access for remote viewing would be reinstated but recent developments (as of mid May) suggest that this might actually become available again.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25

Lol -I hadn’t spotted this but 💯 this

This is bonkers. Non-binary people will use the gender neutral facilities. Depending on the situation - I may occasionally use them. No outing of anyone.

So he was happy to mention it in a meeting, but not to use the GN loos, because using said loos would be "outing"? I suppose he thinks he passes. What say you?

It's transparently manipulative behavior to demand affirmation. It may well be that in his mind not being affirmed in his acquired gender identity is as bad or worse than suffering grievous physical harm. But, that is by any definition, delusion. It's not reasonable to demand the world play along with your delusion, and it's easy to see why accommodating such irrationality has created the problems we see today.

I have one of these at work, insists it with out and “other” them as trans.

its blindingly obvious that they’re not a woman. Everyone who’s ever laid eyes on or spoken to them knows within 5 seconds.

its always about us participating in the lie and them
being allowed to play make believe.

OhBuggerandArse · Today 19:17

Well, duh! Everyone knows and you've just confirmed it in a Teams meeting - so how, exactly, would using the correct toilet be outing?

@SinnerBoy because he genuinely believes no one knows and the useful idiots around him confirm that delusion. So if he is made to use gender neutral facilities that will out him

There really is nothing I can do to openly challenge this person. He is surrounded by people in the meeting who think he needs protected and I'm a bigot

I have previously pointed out that 'passing' is an inherently transphobic concept - according to their ideology passing is not necessary. But they just ignore all logic

And yes I do work for a university and I despair of the level of stupidity and lack of critical thinking

@Chrysanthemum5 how did I guess you work in a uni? Glad I'm retired from one, it was starting to spread where I was.

Jeez Louise! We have single sex loos, universal loos and accessible loos at work. I mostly use the universal loos because they are about 10m from my desk and the single sex women's loos are about 50m away. You ain't gonna be outed because you you use the universal loos.

@ICouldHaveCheckedFirst they recently offered voluntary severance and if I could have made it work (have an autistic child so lots of expenses) I would have left in a heartbeat. And that makes me sad as I was always proud to work here until the last few years but the relentless force of the 'be kind' brigade has finished me

I understand.

When I hear about 'passing', I think about 'The Emperor's New Clothes' passage, where the adults lie or avert their gaze. It takes a child to shout the truth that is known and avoided by everyone present.

The reality sadly goes beyond the story where some men have completely lost touch with reality. Jonathan Willoughby recent messages to JKR on X amaze me. He isn't a woman and will never 'pass', yet he wants to tell her he knows what women are more than she does. That when she says men, she can mean women who happen to be trans. I've never slipped and realised I happened to have a trans moment, maybe it comes on like a cold.

'Outing' used to be a big deal for same-sex attracted people at a time when discrimination in employment was a thing. Even more so when gay men were committing a crime by having sex. It also involved making a declaration about themselves to family and friends at a time when the surrounding corrosive silence made it seem really rare and strange.

But now, when anyone can legally change gender identity and everyone knows a few people who have done so, what does 'outing' even mean?

Being ‘outed’ now means that one’s pretence is exposed and one ceases to control others’ interpretation of who and what one is, which is undermining and dangerous to those relying on others’ acceptance of their delusion to validate it.

For comparison, if my younger brother had been outed as homosexual in the early 1970s, his career (medicine) would have stalled even before it started, even though homosexuality was no longer illegal.

"outing" seems to confer a good deal of advantage these days - one goes from vanilla to stunning and brave in an instant. If someone says that they can't do something because they would be outed (while presumably outing themselves to the people they are discussing it with?) then it would be reasonable to ask whether the consequences would actually be negative. many positives seem to flow?

A piece in the Times on the London mental health trusts - I've been frantically refreshing their website for a week, but it has finally landed. Thanks all you fabulous wims who helped with the audit xx

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/healthcare/article/nhs-mental-health-hospital-wards-criminals-self-identify-women-09b65qfgm

I will post an archive link when it is created - does anyone have access for a gift link for the comments please?

Unfortunately share tokens for articles in the Times no longer give access to the comments. I'm registered with them, and used to be able to read the comments with a share token, but no longer can. They make it clear you need a subscription to read comments now.

Here's an archive link

https://archive.ph/9fZ4e

Unfortunately it still doesn't allow access to the comments.

This is a big part of trans ideology. It demands not just tolerance and acceptance of the trans person but the woo woo insists on and expects full affirmation on the part of women. It compels women's thought, belief and speech to validate their status as a woman. It has been remarkably successful especially in the public sector.
It is a form of bullying / coercive control that has played the 'be kind' side to women for a blinder.

Of course everyone knows that a trans identifying man is a man. They know it and they know that we know, but they get their little thrill in the sure and certain knowledge that they are the boss men and that they are in charge of how their role play unfolds. The enjoy the power that comes with being able to force people into compliance with their bonkers mindset.

They have almost been untouchable hitherto and have had a great time exercising their little bit of dominance and control.

Isn't it ironic that organisations such as NHS, that has a majority female workforce, has allowed itself to be thoroughly captured and has reinforced this and facilitated male dominance?
Sandie didn't play nice, it took a lot for her to cast off the 'be kind' mantle. and the boy Upton reacted just like the entitled man he is.

As nearly always, it's not only women who men (and transmaidens) try to coercively control in trans ideology, @battymaggot, but it's women who bear the brunt of it.

It boggles my mind that Fife have/had a case-by-case basis for allowing trans-identifying men to use the women’s changing rooms. How the hell does that work? It’s surely discrimination to say no to any trans-identifying man. Is it he who kicks up the biggest fuss gets the treasure? Surely if they want to be inclusive they’ve got to let in any dude who considers himself to be under the umbrella, or they are bigoted meanies? They clearly allow self-identity if Dr U was allowed without a GRC 🤔

To be clear - it was the legal team that said this - presumably in an effort to cover NHS Fife’s rear because clearly they weren’t operating that policy. Or any policy - no documentation existed. In fact Upton chose to use the female CR and only discussed with managers once signs of discontent were spotted (and noted in the good Dr’s phone). I so hope the phone disclosure has been agreed because there’s no way the notes were just on Sandie…. there’s bound to be comments on all the staff “just in case”. Some allies are possibly due for a rude awakening

I don’t understand how ‘case by case’ basis was ever supposed to work in Equality Law.

Either you are excluding for a reason that has nothing to do with the PC, so no need to refer to case by case basis.

(Example: I am not a Catholic but my child can’t go to the Catholic school because we are outside the catchment area)

Or you are using the exclusion, but not consistently, which seems like discrimination.

(Example: the Catholic school allows some non Catholics, but does not explain the criteria for acceptance, explaining that decisions are made on a case by case basis).

Exactly. Case by case could never be on the cut of someone’s jib?! It had to refer to the service or facility - but meanings were muddled on purpose

Exactly. Take a locker room for example. Do the users change from street clothes to work clothes and back in it? If they do then it is single sex; if they don't then it can be mixed sex.

Outing these days means acknowledging that they are men and don't pass