NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

Right, I've mailed Carol Potter and posted a postcard to Sandie Peggie and gardened for Faye RC and Sarah Holman, and now I need to write to my MSPs (again) and to my own local NHS health board? Sigh, a woman's work is never done. Still, better than having to endure the test case myself... Very grateful to those women who are doing this for us all.

Magi Gibson's reposted this in light of the current situation. Seems apt.

(Fairly full on swearing warning for those who don't like it)

x.com/hotchkissrhona/status/1891471288012587474?s=46&t=BRUxTjZ34agAPkVo-fi3zA

Delurking to say thank you to pp for posting the hospital address, I have written Sandie a card of support. You all talk so quickly I never normally have time to join in, but I have been reading every thread as I am sure have many fellow lurkers!
As you were

No, but I am finding that nothing surprises me any more.

NHS Disciplinary policies usually allow for the person involved to make one request for a change of date.
It’s usually used to arrange union representation.

Rhona Hotchkiss' thread is C&P'd in full upthread for those with limited access to X.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20?reply=142244494&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/14355676/anas-sarwar-fife-trans-doctor-sandie-peggie-beth-upton/

anas sarwar backs SP. I mean I know he’s probably doing it to make SNP look bad but still

Just me and wishful thinking or is he back peddling from the TWAW line?
Saying it should be single sex, as per the law?

Although that depends on the definition of sex, actual sex (dicks & fannies) vs paper sex (whatever box was ticked)

"In December 2022, Mr Sarwar whipped his Labour MSPs into voting for former First Minister Nicola Sturgeon’s controversial gender self-ID laws.
And at his party’s conference last year, delegates voted down a motion which had called for it to “acknowledge the principle of women’s sex-based rights”."

If I was in Scotland I'd like a very clear admission that Scottish Labour were wrong to do that and that they will no longer support self ID in any way.

This!!! Does he SERIOUSLY think this will be forgotten any time soon.

Claim on X that a FoIA request received the response that NHS Fife does not hold a policy regarding staff changing rooms.

https://x.com/kimnicoll3/status/1891547902075392500

However, similar requests on What Do They Know? has slightly different answers from same officer (Kellyanne Tosh).

FREEDOM OF INFORMATION REQUEST NHS Fife:6677.
Thank you for your request made on 15/11/2024 under the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002 (FOI(S)A) for single sex staff policies.
NHS Fife has completed our search for information held in relation to your request and in this case we will be applying an exemption to some of the data/all of the data.

Exemption: Section 17 – Information not held.

I am writing to request a copy of the following Trust policies that incorporate information on single sex staff changing, toilet and showering facilities policy, Trust chaperone policy, Supporting staff who are transgender and staff who may be transitioning in the workplace policy.
Would you please also supply the Equality Impact Assessments for these policies if they are not included in the policies.

NHS Fife does not have a Single Sex Staff Changing, Toilet and Showering Facilities policy in place.

NHS Fife does not have a Chaperone policy in place, however, this is in development.

NHS Fife does not have policy in place to support staff in the workplace who are transgender or staff who may be transitioning. However, support is provided as required. A new Once for Scotland NHS Scotland Equality, Diversity and Inclusion Policy is in the soft launch phase at present, which will be adopted as Board policy. A copy of the policy and transitioning guide are attached.

NHS Fife are unable to provide Equality Impact Assessments for the above policies as there are no policies in place.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/request_for_single_sex_staff_cha#incoming-2845802

Kellyanne Tosh.

Is that nominative determinism in action?

In the interest of celebrating their integrity, I should point out that two Labour MSP's held out against the whip and voted against the GRR Bill - Carol Mochan and Claire Baker, at a big cost to their political careers.

He is confusing the Equality Act and GRA exceptions with Health and Safety Regs 1992.

It's not up to the employer to decide when single sex changing rooms are appropriate - the situations where they are mandated are described in the regulations.

Anas Sarwar is just protecting his own backside. If he can use this to attack the SNP then he'll take full advantage. But I for one haven't forgotten that Scottish Labour fully embraced the Gender Recognition bill. I wrote to my Labour MSP beforehand to ask they consider the amendments to protect single sex spaces. The deeply offensive reply I received made me so angry. Apparently I'm transphobic for worrying about the potential for harm. But less than 3 weeks later we had a convicted rapist trying to get himself in a women's prison. It really shocked me how easily politicians were prepared to throw away our hard won rights to look good. So Sarwar can stick his fake concern.

Absolutely. Plus was it a couple of SNP MSPs who rebelled.

OK - so I'd believe Scottish Labour had changed when they both apolgise AND give two brave women posts, even if minor posts.

Bit of a U turn there.
Skid marks everywhere.

I admit to googling the name to check it wasn't a wind-up.

In other news Mr Menno and Sarah Phillimore are having a YT chat this evening (21:00).

https://x.com/MrMennoTweets/status/1891539872449691927

Dr Upton didn't just shoot himself in the foot, he took out his AK47 and blew both his legs off" Was this the most bonkers of all 'GC' tribunals? The Sandie Peggie Tribunal: Gender Ideology On Trial | Chat with Sarah Phillimore goes live this eve at 9PM (UK) Join me in the chat if you can

7 voted no - Stephanie Callaghan, Fergus Ewing, Kenneth Gibson, Ruth Maguire, John Mason, Michelle Thomson and Ash Regan

2 abstained - Annabelle Ewing and Jim Fairlie

As an aside, Fergus Ewing is currently not being backed by the SNP for re-election. He has defied whips a few times and has criticised decisions made by the SNP.

"Mr Sarwar has called for “clear guidance” to be given to public bodies in the wake of NHS nurse Sandie Peggie objecting to trans colleague Dr Beth Upton using the women’s facility at Victoria Hospital in Fife back in 2023."

And who is going to give that guidance? The regulations are UK wide.

So Labour have finally read the room? It's a shame noone mentioned any of this before now, isn't it?! Fuckwits.

OK - so I'd believe Scottish Labour had changed when they both apolgise AND give two brave women posts, even if minor posts.

And for English Labour to restore the whip to Rosie Duffield, and for the Lib Dems to allow Natalie Bird to stand as a candidate. I don't follow Green politics much, but they are no better.

That's what I like about our Equality Act. The characteristics themselves are protected, not particular manifestations of them. All sexes, all races, all sexual orientations etc. None of this modern nonsense of "Oh but it isn't Ism if it's directed at Them".