NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

Wait, what, we're on monocles now?

That is really interesting and seems surprisingly low. I would have assumed there would be more people identifying as non-binary - maybe strictly speaking, under UK law, that falls outside the definition of gender reassignment?

I'm sure all the links for Jewish members of staff are just waiting to be uploaded to the website.

And won't everyone be happy when they realise that same sex marriage has been legal for 11 years!!!

0.4% of residents in Fife consider themselves to be trans, according to the census:

https://know.fife.scot/data/assets/pdfffile/0041/597866/KnowFife-Briefing-Census-2022-Sexual-Orientation.pdf

Plenty of scope to have to deal with pronoun emergencies!

Bloody hell, you take a day off MN thinking the hearing is on hold and it all goes bonkers.

Now I’ve caught up with threads, I’d like to revisit a very important point from earlier discussions. Namely that anyone nostalgic for Crown Court may be interested to know it’s on Talking Pictures Tv (Freeview ch82) on weekday afternoons.

fascinating on several levels, one of which being the Acorn Antiques level of production. IIRC, it was broadcast live.

From minutes on one meeting on Equality & Human Rights strategy had a Janette Keenan, Director of Nursing (Executive Lead for Equality and Human Rights) co chair the meeting with IB.

I don't remember her name come up before but i might have missed that.

This bit from TT made me think that someone has not be truthful, but is it ED or IB?

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:13
didnt hear response]
NC [new page] You said u hadnt spoken to IB before Beth arrived. 1st talk in August
ED Yes
NC IB spoke to ED in July 23 after R2 joined
ED I dint discuss w IB until end of Aug, so incorrect
NC How is this in claim docs then?
ED Never seen docs before

Sorry, I'm a bit of a lurker and just caught up having speed read so far! To me it's big news if Fife have acceded to a request to postpone by SP. Is it, or is it ass covering?

BBC Radio Scotland also saying in the 17:30 news that it has been postponed

Yes, I remember this coming up but I think they didn't go any further into it. I can't quite get from TT what that meant?

Where they trying to suggest IB was claiming to have done some prior smoothing of the way? Or that ED was denying having had any early advice?

Discussed on BBC Scotland now, starting just after 1730

Murdo Fraser now on about it.

https://x.com/murdo_fraser/status/1891539737992655044?s=46

"Very disappointed to see that @POScotParl has not selected any of the questions submitted for answer by @scotgov or @JohnSwinney on the @nhsfife misuse of public resources in the Sandy Peggie case. Deeply frustrating that it will not be possible to hold Ministers to account."

Headless chickens or ostrich heads in sand? They're running scared. Shameful they won't allow scrutiny of Scotgov's policy on this (NHS is apparently following Scotgov's guidance - likely written by trans orgs) & allow Qs on the clear impact this is having on female staff. Never mind patients.

Well, I was referring to humans of a single specification rather than those who sport a monocle. But now you mention it, wouldn't they be non-binary?

I'll get my coat...

Does anyone know if all other NHS boards in Scotland have official policies in place that allow “use of the toilets and other facilities in your acquired gender” as you like?

Across the various threads the question around ignoring the provisions in the 1992 health safety regulations has come up. Because the subsequent non HS laws muddle things. If there are any health and safety professionals on here I would be interested to know if you are ever consulted or if you have ever raised in your organisation

On impulse drove to a nearby garden centre for a wander round. Bumped into a pal - had tea together.

On the way out, we were discussing the tribunal. Waitress: "We've all just been discussing that! It's terrible - we women need to speak up."

I told my pal and the waitress about the postcard campaign. Dr Upton has well and truly peaked the ladies of Fife and Kinross.

He's speaking very clearly on the subject.

Frustratingly.the question isn't being allowed on Thursday at the Scottish parliament

Maybe those in Scotland should write to our MSP to ask if they will lodge a question, I don’t know if there would be power in numbers.

Relevant BBC audio clip about postponement here:

https://x.com/tlitb/status/1891545354350276633

I'm in my mid-60s. This is the first time in my life that I've found myself getting into a conversation with a stranger about political matters.

I have an older friend who is a retired psychologist. She's never used social media. When we were discussing the case, she was alarmed to hear that a certain person is married to a young woman.

I assume the BBC mean that the meeting has been postponed because Miss Peggie's solicitor pointed out NHS FIFE might be in contempt of court.

If there hasnt yet been a ruling on Upton's phone then I hope the proposed hearing features in the discussion.

It's pretty normal not to answer questions on issues that are still before a court. Those trying to ask the questions know that, they are virtue signalling too. Once the case is concluded they can ask the questions again.

I suppose I now need to find out how PQs are accepted or declined! Democracy in action my foot. This is the first thing I found. See last two paragraphs about current events.

https://www.parliament.scot/chamber-and-committees/questions-and-answers/about-questions-and-answers/topical-questions#topOfNav

I don't know if this section applies to the declined question by Murdo, but how do we find out WHY it's been declined? It's odd that no one else is asking a similar Q. All afraid or what?

Instructive to look at What Do They Know to grasp the scale of UK's Hospitals with the policy that people may use changing facilities that match gender identity.

www.whatdotheyknow.com/search/transgender%20guidance%20/requests?sortby=&request_variety%5B%5D=sent&request_date_after=2024%2F06%2F01&request_date_before=2025%2F02%2F17&commit=Filter

Tess White also tried to lodge questions, which were also denied - https://x.com/TessWhite4NE/status/1891543445329608975

I like how many people are now reading up on how to contact MPs, who has the right to do what, finding out what the processes are, comparing NHS Fife policy to their own local hospitals and many more things.
The case has done a lot of good for active political participation and holding politicians to their past actions, and motivated people to go looking for answers.

Especially helpful are people outside of the NHS speaking for those who are not allowed and need to be careful due to their workplace.

Do you remember the Ayrshire and Arran health board policy from a few years ago which said that objecting to a trans woman in a woman's ward was akin to racism? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/fury-scots-health-board-says-28710585.amp