NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #20

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19

Yes! lets do this.

Alright, genes are probably definitive. But you are not going to get the answer from a cheek swab, which was the original point.

Has anyone else seen that the BBC is reporting that NHS Fife is calling a separate disciplinary against Sandie ?

Screams of them trying to find something to discredit her with.

“The BBC has learned that NHS Fife has scheduled a conduct hearing to examine allegations against Ms Peggie of misconduct, failures of patient care and misgendering Dr Upton.”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3d5d0x97vyo

My argument is that only people who believe in gender identities can 'misgender', according to their own beliefs that sex-specific language instead refers to something called a gender identity, which they believe people have. When I say 'he', 'she', 'boy', 'girl', 'man', 'woman', I'm referring to someone's sex. I'm not 'gendering' or 'misgendering' anyone. So if anyone accuses me of 'misgendering', that person is assuming I have a belief that I do not have, and attempting to impose it on me.

Shona is right!

"Marriage is defined as a 'union between a man and a woman'. Same-sex couples can have their relationships legally recognised as 'civil partnerships'. Civil partners must be treated the same as married couples on a wide range of legal matters. (As defined by the Equality and Human Rights Commission)"

They just haven't bothered to update the other protected characteristics since 2014?

He can use his (imaginary) ovaries and (imaginary) uterus if he wants to carry the poor baby.

Or his (real) sperm from his (real) bollocks to make it.

Up to him, although one method might take a little longer I think.

Alright, genes are probably definitive. But you are not going to get the answer from a cheek swab, which was the original point.

For the vast majority of humans you can determine sex with a cheek swab.

Yes that’s what most of the stuff on this thread is now about :)

raging disbelief that they could be both so clueless and so cruel

NHS Fife's staff demographic report is illuminating

www.nhsfife.org/media/psxpikl1/nhs-fife-equal-opportunities-report-22-05-2024.pdf

4 staff are trans out of just under 10,000 staff (2 hospitals, data not split)
2.5% are LGB
67.7% of staff refused or ignored the gender qns or didn't know.

Other protected characteristics not covered above
214 staff are 65+
312 have a disability
(Not sure who won't have men in womens spaces because of religion) 3 are Jewish, 7 Sikh, 77 Muslim
64% answered the qn about religion

Talk about the tail wagging the dog!

Foran's response:

https://x.com/michaelpforan/status/1891526798233547056

Tell that to the IVF clinics that sex sort sperm pre fertilisation
and then definitively check sex using one cell from a blastocyst
https://www.createfertility.co.uk/blog/what-is-pgd

Used fully legally in the UK by families with history of things like Duchenne

Or at least, no evidence that it's anything other than genetic even in those edge cases.

There's still a miniscule outside chance that in DSDs with unknown genetic cause there's something in the intrauterine environment that disrupts development and we just don't know what it is. But that's really splitting hairs!

The BBC report suggests that FIFE have postponed the hearing, I wonder if that is true given that the BBC is often inaccurate?

@FannyCann I hope you have NOT sent a postcard to Dr Searle, that would be a mistake.

Saying rescheduled at her request as opposed to them realising they’re making a colossal fuck up

Let's not start all this DSD bollocks again.

0.018% of people.

So rare most medics will probably never see a true case in their career.

180 people per MILLION people.

Let's stick to the reality here.

It's not relevant in this case, and it's not relevant in the trans debate as a whole.
Their DSD statistics are the SAME as the general population.

Transfender: when a coal falls out of the fire on to the hearthrug and sets the house on fire.

Quite.

It feels like arguing that people don't understand double yellow lines because my friend's dog's neighbour heard that the paint might go off and the pigment might react to the sun and they drift into becoming a shade of orange. Therefore no one understands them anymore and can't be expected not to park on them.

BBC says 'rescheduled at her request'
Strange feeling - I read a report on our public service broadcaster and I can't be sure that it is the truth.
How did we get here?

I think SP could legitimately say she was told by judge not to discuss case until ET concludes in July. As you say it also gets Fife hospital out of the ver6 deep hole they had dug for themselves.

Who was managing IB one wonders?

Just how many emergency pronoun situations did she get called to per week to take up all her time?

Maybe one could expect some updating of the website & some broadening of focus across the PCs?

Paid more than nurses who will be absolutely grafting for that lower salary 🙄

Swinney fluffs his lines
https://x.com/ginadavidsonlbc/status/1891523404747907496

Just how many emergency pronoun situations did she get called to per week to take up all her time?😂

'Paging IB we have a Code pink emergency in A&E'

To be fair, single spec spaces is pretty much the same thing.

Sex selective IVF also legal in California for anyone who can afford it.