NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #24

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23

@Justabaker emailed a copy to you

It’s at moments like this I want to send some chocolates to the Admin in the courts.

I imagine most ETs have a handful of observers mostly friends and family of those involved. A case like this is a rarity and they will be overwhelmed with the volume of emails.

Image attached

When will we find out what is decided tomorrow? Does in private mean in secret or are press allowed? Can each side tell us / the press?

It'll more than likely be a telephone / video hearing with the parties and Judge only. Sandie's solicitor has released info on what's happening before, so may again, I'd imagine (if permitted).

I made a similar point about the BBC and the Guardian, in as diplomatic language as I could muster. And used my Dr title which I don't often bother with these days.

Brilliant, unassailable emails from the women here.

Thank you !

Great job on the emails. Although not of direct relevance, I hope you don't mind me sharing this local story of a male dentist caught covertly filming female nurses changing in a local hospital:

https://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/25073798.queen-marys-hospital-sidcup-dentist-filmed-nurses/

Unfortunately he only received a suspended sentence and may be able to return to dentistry.

Obviously I am not suggesting Dr. Upton was up to anything similar... but it does show how important decent genuinely single sex changing spaces are.

@BeLemonNow interesting that the charge that he was found guilty of was

“OBSERVING A PERSON DOING A PRIVATE ACT FOR THE PURPOSE OF SEXUAL GRATIFICATION”.

Obviously parking a camera in a bag in a changing room for women is the very definition of voyeurism.

Obviously being ACTUALLY in the changing room for women is NOT an offence as long as you proclaim you are of that sex, in your head.

so fucked up.

the silly dentist really was not reading the playbook.

we could send him a dress.

Don't be ridiculous - you don't need a dress! 😜 As per the Darlington nurses case anyone can hang around in male boxers, watch women change, and repeatedly ask why they aren't - just as long as you say you are a woman.

I suspect nurses are at a much higher risk of voyeurism because of the nurses / nurses uniform fetish. The majority of voyeurism crimes are crimes by biological men against biological women and girls...

...of course that's another reason that NHS Fife and other trusts should have actually conducted an equality and risk assessment...

@BeLemonNow Fuck i had not thought about the whole nurse uniform thing, that would be pushing it in a EQIA,

”men have propensity to fantasise about nurses in uniforms” LOL

Nurses don't usually (AFAIK) wear the 'nurse uniform' any longer, they usually wear scrubs. Men wear scrubs too, so the sexual element is removed.

But the fantasy still lingers for some.

Idk this isn't exactly my area of expertise. But on Reddit ask men "why are men into nurses" scrubs are mentioned..."can't hide a great ass".

I suspect there would be demand on parts of the internet for "genuine nurses strip off!" type videos.

@Justabaker - copy of my email to the ET sent to you.

WRT the nurse/nurses uniform. I always understood the old nurses accommodations were a draw for voyeurs.

If I remember correctly the film Gregory’s Girl depicted this.

Yup. Don’t want to derail the the thread, but experienced JS and pals in the corridors of the nurses home I lived in as a student. We all had net curtains and always changed with the main curtains closed.

But it never happens.

The sexy nurse thing is straight out of a Carry On film to my mind. I'd have thought scrubs were deeply unsexy but there's no accounting for taste, clearly.

The uniform thing is a proxy so scrubs/uniform aren’t inherently sexy in themselves. The nurse thing or fetish is because nurses handle men intimately as part of their job, which few other women do. That and they look after them.

Spot on and yuk

Bizarrely we were watching Gregory's Girl yesterday and it does indeed depict exactly this.

For a real insight into the 'sexy nurse' concept I'd recommend The Singing Detective. Still an amazing piece of television but at the end I felt I knew a bit too much about Dennis Potter's sexual fantasies.

On the other hand my DM was a nurse, she used to wear her uniform when she went shopping in the market and hoik her skirt up shorter as she got better prices that way.

On tenterhooks here wondering when there might be news from the tribunal. Between that and FWS verdict tomorrow my nerves are fair jangling.

I was genuinely just about to post with a mention of The Singing Detective, @AnnaMagnani (which, btw, a friend of mine always insisted on calling'The Whistling Policeman')

I never liked those Dennis Potter plays. Although they were praised to the skies at the time. You wouldn't wish his maladies on anyone, but I thought he came across horribly.

I think he knows he comes over horribly. It's one of the strengths of the drama, in that it talks about things that are real but everyone pretends don't exist.

Gregory's Girl is a very different drama, but I was left thinking that some of it's themes about normal male teen sexuality would now be seen as sexist or inappropriate - but where does that leave the boys? On the internet with Andrew Tate?

I posted this on the FWS thread but thought it would interest posters here also -

Tweet by FWS -

'Our director, Trina Budge, wrote to Arianne Burgess MSP to ask for examples of "attacks" on trans people which she claimed occurred in the chamber at Holyrood. This was her reply.'

https://x.com/ForWomenScot/status/1911987122430759333

This the kind of bullshit that FWS and any rational MSP are up against.