NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #22

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21

Going back to the attempts by Upton to have the tribunal heard in private, this Sex Matters briefing covers the interesting concept of to what degree Upton transitioning was a private business. Upton said he believed that most people didn't know he was trans (just his friends and family and supervisor) and that it was a "private matter" but SM said it was generally known and talked about.

Remember, to qualify for a GR certificate, you have to prove you have lived your life as a woman for 2 years. The GMC said in their letter to Baroness Nicholson that this 2 year requirement meant that a doctor who was starting to live as a woman wouldn't have one, but they would change their record to reflect the new identity as this is how the doctor is known.

https://sex-matters.org/posts/single-sex-services/edinburgh-employment-tribunal-says-no-to-trans-anonymity-order/

Re 'Duncan Bannatyne is very vocal about having single sex changing rooms. I wonder if he ever has much of a problem enforcing it.'

At my local Bannatyne gym, the manageress allowed a transwoman to use the women's changing rooms. A woman complained on his Twitter account, he said this was not permitted and he would sort it out.

I have to say @Datun if i ever found a male in a female space i would kick off big, very big time.

on the subject of IB's prior experience, it seems she did her dissertation on something to do with how a gut condition contributes to autism and volunteered in Nigeria. Still not enough to be an equalities lead on 50K though. I really hope if she's a witness her experience and qualifications are taken apart, and more questions for NHS Fife

how a gut condition contributes to autism

This is surely the discredited proposal of the infamous Dr Wakefield who falsified research to "prove" vaccines caused autism. Is the idea still floating around in sociological circles?

I often wonder why this issue is so high on the political agenda. So let's say it was ditched, I reckon 90% or so of the electorate wouldn't give a damn really.

Please fill me in on why if anyone can. There are far more pressing and important issues in the UK than ever before and none of them involve the trans movement.

Sorry if I am coming across as stupid or ignorant, I just cannot understand the importance it is given and the parliamentary support it has received.

Well she worked as a covid vaccination thingamajig and her twitter shows her following lots of vaccine people (including those anti vaccine) so interesting...

Could you clarify firstly what the issue is that you refer to.

The trans issue, why it is so high on the political agenda, and why there is such support for those transwomen who decide to trample all over the rights of women.

Haha, yes I've been told off for caring too much about facts and logic.

To the tune of uptown funk, with help from Chat GPT:

[Intro]
Upton, go man up, Upton, go man up!
Upton, go man up, Upton, go man up!
Light up the truth—let the facts erupt!
Time to step in, no more interruptions!
[Verse 1]
Step in the courtroom, all eyes on you,
Dr Upton, your claims are falling through.
You tried to mansplain, but the truth’s too strong,
Now every word you speak just proves you’re wrong.
[Pre-Chorus]
No more dodging, no more spin—
Face the facts and let truth begin.
It’s your moment, so stop the bluff,
Dr Upton, it’s time to man up!
[Chorus]
Hey! Upton, man up, you know it,
Tryna mansplain but you can’t show it,
Naomi’s here, facts in hand,
Showin’ the world where you stand!
Don’t believe me? Just watch!
(Upton, go man up, Upton, go man up!)
[Verse 2]
NHS Fife built a case on shaky ground,
Every dodged detail now plainly found.
The evidence speaks—and it’s crystal clear,
Dr Upton, your excuses end right here!
[Pre-Chorus]
This is the hour—no more alibis,
Step into the light, cut through all the lies.
It’s time to show what you’re really made of,
Dr Upton, come on—man up!
[Chorus]
Hey! Upton, man up, you know it,
Tryna mansplain but you can’t show it,
Naomi’s here, facts in hand,
Showin’ the world where you stand!
Don’t believe me? Just watch!
(Upton, go man up, Upton, go man up!)
[Bridge]
Come on, Upton—own the floor,
No more spin, you know the score.
When the truth is the measure and the plan is clear,
A real man 6ft tall - its going to cost you dear!
[Breakdown]
Upton, go man up—don’t delay,
Let every false claim fade away.
Stand up as a man and let the truth ring true,
This is your wake-up call—it’s overdue!
[Chorus]
Hey! Upton, man up, you know it,
Tryna mansplain but you can’t show it,
Naomi’s here, facts in hand,
Showin’ the world where you stand!
Don’t believe me? Just watch!
(Upton, go man up, Upton, go man up!)
[Outro]
Time’s up, Dr Upton—no more delays,
The facts are blazing bright in these courtly displays.
When the truth is out and the case is done,
Everyone will know—a man - you're one!

Yes, I think I would too. I was thinking more about shop assistants, who are at the coal face, and have to confront it.

Good to hear

Is sugar soap good for ovens? I need to know!

Deal!

Oh @Boiledbeetle think what the AI could do with that 🤣🤣 Metadata iceberg?

b) JR's request to decrease what is required for disclosure.

So NC is seeking more information and JR is trying to put the brakes on.

Is she simply opposing NC's requests, which I suppose is her job, or is there more information which they are meant to have disclosed that she is trying to bury?

It would be lovely if it could go away but trans and gender rights are enshrined in our laws. There is a current petition calling for the GRA 2004 to be repealed if you are interested. This law allowed people to change their legal sex upon meeting a set of requirements and some very confused people seem to think they can actually change their biological sex. They also seem to think trans rights should be prioritised above sex based rights. Gender reassignment is one of the protected characteristics of the Equality Act along with sex, age, disability, marriage, religion, pregnancy, sexual orientation and race. Quite often gender rights impinge on sex based rights and that's why many cases have ended up in the law courts and employment tribunals.

A good place to start would be the Sex Matters site.

https://sex-matters.org/#header-nav

I just cannot see NHS Fife continuing with this. I know there have been rumours that SP refused a settlement, but think if Fife just admit everything, the proceedings will stop except for deliberations on costs and compensation. They must feel they have had quite enough sunlight now, thank you.

LoobiJee · Today 20:09

Is sugar soap good for ovens? I need to know!

It helps as a first stage. I make up about 100 ml with a teaspoon of sugar soap, cover the oven bottom with kitchen roll and soak the kitchen roll with the solution. Leave for 2 hours.

I then remove it and may repeat, if still gunky. Then use dry kitchen roll to remove as much softened gunk as possible.

Spray degreaser on and leave for half an hour to an hour, remove with an old nylon scourer. Repeat as necessary.

You can use search filters to narrow a date range, although if too many hits, results seem to truncate, so I'd suggest doing several searches.
For Feb 3rd to 5th, either eg1
https://x.com/search?q=From:@boswelltoday%20exclude:replies%20since:2025-02-03%20until:2025-02-05

or eg2 put this in the X search bar:

From:@boswelltoday%20exclude:replies%20since:2025-02-03%20until:2025-02-05

I found this thread while searching for background info, answers to Q's I had about the ET, & have not found anything remotely as good, for attention to detail & also to tangents, & have signed up to delurk, & thank you all especially @nauticant - I have a Q: can anyone launch a continuation thread or is it OP only?

edit to add: %20 is how a space gets represented when pasting

I have never cleaned an oven that way or any other way really so thank you for that.

No way will DU admit anything at all! He is utterly convinced of his own righteousness. Could NHS Fife admit their bit and then just leave him to it?

This might be a stupid question, but how would the courts/judge know that Sandie (or Dr U for that matter, or anyone involved) are not reading these threads, or in fact not reading anything related to the case? Many people on previous threads have already said all the people involved aren't supposed to read anything about the case until it's over.

How would the judge etc know they are sticking to that? They could use a VPN or get someone else to look things up for them or buy a new phone and not link it. I'm just curious at how this would be managed by the courts until July. I'm not suggesting anybody involved is reading these threads or all the other news stories, it's just such a hard thing to contain. I feel like it's everywhere so how could they avoid it?

I think it's like driving using a mobile. Most people won't get caught but it is illegal. If anyone was caught reading stuff they would be in trouble.