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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #22

1000 replies

nauticant · 22/02/2025 14:11

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21

OP posts:
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11
WearyAuldWumman · 23/02/2025 16:11

oldwomanwhoruns · 23/02/2025 16:05

Upton looks as if he has had a good bit of Facial feminisation surgery (nose job, nostril width reduction, brow lift, eyelid surgery, cheek augmentation, lip lift?? Just guessing, of course).
He'd have needed time out of view to recover from these. Does this fit in with him missing his graduation ceremony??

The only surgery that I notice is the nose width reduction. (It's hard to tell about the rest because of the beard but there's not a huge difference in his profile.) He was - I recall - signed off with stress after the horror of being challenged by Sandie Peggie at work. I assume that he's had a nose job while off work.

Heggettypeg · 23/02/2025 16:19

TeiTetua · 23/02/2025 15:47

Well, what the TRAs would say is that your particular ancestors define what your racial group is (or combination of groups for some people). But gender is based on "what you know you are" and doesn't depend on the physical configuration of your body or your so-called sex chromosomes. Basically gender is a social issue, and you can decide to accept someone's definition of themselves (if you're a kind person) or reject it (if you're a bigot).

Of course, nobody here would say that! But the TRAs would.

I think it's a waste of time trying to make it add up, because both stances have started with the desired "progressive" outcome and adopted whichever theory of identity backs it up.

When it's race, the desired outcome is that the target group gets to decide who is in and who is out. When it's sex, the desired outcome is that the target group has no say in the matter at all. So inevitably, there is a contradiction.

mrshoho · 23/02/2025 16:20

lifeturnsonadime · 23/02/2025 16:09

Starmer is very deliberate in his use of 'safe' rather than 'single sex' space.

He's a Lawyer.

He knows exactly what he is doing. Safe spaces can include males.

Starmer is a snake. We see right through him.

RaspberryScrubs · 23/02/2025 16:32

mrshoho · 23/02/2025 16:20

Starmer is a snake. We see right through him.

Yes we see him for the snake he is.

KnottyAuty · 23/02/2025 16:32

TriesNotToBeCynical · 23/02/2025 15:52

Race is largely a social construct!

Surely you mean nebulous?!

GriefSubmittedHighways · 23/02/2025 16:35

It is probably better not to speculate about Upton's private life (alleged surgery, absences from work/graduation, etc.) It is pure guesswork, feels too intrusive and risks making the critiques of him look cruel rather than simply principled. There is plenty to discuss in the actual case without needing to weave possible fictions.

MarieDeGournay · 23/02/2025 16:35

Cailin66 · 23/02/2025 14:02

@nauticant thank you so much for all the work you have done, really appreciate it.

Also to the other lovely ladies on here and those on tribunal tweets etc.

Could someone help me with something particular, Twitter, boswell today. How do I see his day by day posts on twittter in chronological order, right now I can't find day 1 to 6. Is there a trick to it?

Hi Cailin66, I'm being friendly but useless!
I haven't a clue how to do what you want to do on Twitter/x - not on it myself - but I noticed that you posted your question ages ago and I don't think you got an answer. I wouldn't like you to think you're being ignoredSmile
=friendly but useless replyGrin

BonfireLady · 23/02/2025 16:35

mrshoho · 23/02/2025 16:20

Starmer is a snake. We see right through him.

He's also even more of a fool than he's coming across now with his "safe spaces" waffle if he thinks he'll avoid awkward questions, with both the Darlington nurses case and the outcome of the Supreme Court FWR case coming up. He's going to need to find an opinion that he can stick to - one that actually means something - or he'll make his own position even more untenable than it already is. An ex-lawyer who can't call out the absurdity in the current laws covering GRCs and the meaning of the word "sex" who also can't lead a sensible way out of this situation is demonstrating to everyone that he's not fit to be a PM. He's got a limited window in which to start looking like he knows what he's doing.

Edited for clarity/grammar

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 23/02/2025 16:38

SinnerBoy · 23/02/2025 16:02

Octavia

He claims that he was “ fully out as trans at work “ by August 2022, when he was an FY2, a second year trainee. So very junior, still wet behind the ears.

Didn't he claim to be terrified of being outed at work? If so, how was he out? It makes ever less sense.

He was working 'as a woman' and worried the trans bit would be outed, because you know no one would have any idea until they saw him using the men CR so he had to use the women's otherwise he would be rumbled as trans because sex is just a nebulous dog whistle so no one would clock he isn't really female.

KnottyAuty · 23/02/2025 16:48

oldwomanwhoruns · 23/02/2025 16:05

Upton looks as if he has had a good bit of Facial feminisation surgery (nose job, nostril width reduction, brow lift, eyelid surgery, cheek augmentation, lip lift?? Just guessing, of course).
He'd have needed time out of view to recover from these. Does this fit in with him missing his graduation ceremony??

I looked at old/new photos and I believed DU’s statement that they’d had no medical procedures

ditalini · 23/02/2025 16:58

KnottyAuty · 23/02/2025 16:48

I looked at old/new photos and I believed DU’s statement that they’d had no medical procedures

Upton always had fairly soft features, hence scraggly beard to cover chin.

It may have made him feel uncomfortable throughout his post -pubertal life and that he wasn't "manly" enough. Male appearance standards are toxic in their own way.

His height may also have made him a target for behaviors that he wasn't comfortable with. I've seen tall, gentle, skinny boys picked on as easy prey that way.

Wbeezer · 23/02/2025 17:15

Butting in here with a clarification in relation to earlier posts, and apologies if it's been mentioned before and I didn't spot it, but I've noted several instances of posters talking about duplication of effort and rolling out policies nationwide but NHS Scotland is a totally separate entity to NHS England, there is no ability to roll out national policy across the whole UK.

JustBitetheKnotsOff · 23/02/2025 17:18

His height may also have made him a target for behaviors that he wasn't comfortable with. I've seen tall, gentle, skinny boys picked on as easy prey that way.

Yes, he reminds me quite strongly of the tall, blond, slight boy in my child's year who transitioned. Feminine face, but unmistakably male hands, feet and hips, to say nothing of the baritone voice. I can imagine he was oblivious to the girls who found his presence intrusive in their loos, as they mostly felt protective of him and didn't want to upset him. And school staff were quite clear that they weren't going to listen to any discomfort. It's written into their policies.

It's so similar.

KnottyAuty · 23/02/2025 17:18

Another digression.
Shon Faye on Nish Kumar’s podcast

Apparently mumsnet is a hotbed of anti trans radicalisation. Mothers are vulnerable to being used as the arm of facist regimes. And women turn right wing/far right once they become mothers, using misplaced safeguarding concerns to further their agenda. FFS.

These people are clearly an empathy free zone - but on the plus side if it’s ok to ask a TW about motherhood then maybe they’ll ask me on to the show next week and I can explain to Nish what it’s like to be a British Asian … ?!?! (Spoiler I have zero personal experience on this but why should that stop me making wild stereotypical claims right?). Rude!

Edited to add: apparently mumsnet users prevented open debate by running people off the site. No mention of trans extremists reporting posts for the mere mention of cake

https://crooked.com/podcast/trumps-plan-for-peace-in-ukraine-only-pleases-putin-the-politics-of-modern-love/

DeanElderberry · 23/02/2025 17:28

The recent casting of blame has tended to accuse us of using logic. Which is obviously unkind and possibly unfair.

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 23/02/2025 17:47

DeanElderberry · 23/02/2025 17:28

The recent casting of blame has tended to accuse us of using logic. Which is obviously unkind and possibly unfair.

Really?! That's bizarre but also hilarious.

MustBeThursday · 23/02/2025 17:56

SinnerBoy · 23/02/2025 16:02

Octavia

He claims that he was “ fully out as trans at work “ by August 2022, when he was an FY2, a second year trainee. So very junior, still wet behind the ears.

Didn't he claim to be terrified of being outed at work? If so, how was he out? It makes ever less sense.

DU supposedly believed no one was aware of him being a TW - that everyone believed him to be actually female which was part of the request for the tribunal to be held in private. But then also reported experiencing micro-aggressions at work (can't remember when this was mentioned but I recall reading it) so clearly was aware that at least some did know of being trans.

Surely if genuinely not wanting to be "outed" as trans, you'd actively avoid using communal changing rooms though!

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 23/02/2025 18:07

MustBeThursday · 23/02/2025 17:56

DU supposedly believed no one was aware of him being a TW - that everyone believed him to be actually female which was part of the request for the tribunal to be held in private. But then also reported experiencing micro-aggressions at work (can't remember when this was mentioned but I recall reading it) so clearly was aware that at least some did know of being trans.

Surely if genuinely not wanting to be "outed" as trans, you'd actively avoid using communal changing rooms though!

Careful now, you’re using logic, which might be unkind, or unfair…

RethinkingLife · 23/02/2025 18:08

Good to see the GMC listen to someone re not erasing prior reprimands, suspensions etc if someone obtains a change in gender marker.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/22/disciplinary-records-trans-doctors-will-be-public-gmc-nhs/

Itsnotwhatitseemslike · 23/02/2025 18:14

Wbeezer · 23/02/2025 17:15

Butting in here with a clarification in relation to earlier posts, and apologies if it's been mentioned before and I didn't spot it, but I've noted several instances of posters talking about duplication of effort and rolling out policies nationwide but NHS Scotland is a totally separate entity to NHS England, there is no ability to roll out national policy across the whole UK.

Yes, I am aware that there is a separate NHS Scotland and that is also a waste of effort . It irritates me how devolution has led to an increase in bureaucracy and duplication. Subsidiarity is a laudable aim but it is rarely done efficiently. Being different purely for the sake of it is just a nonsense.

Szygy · 23/02/2025 18:34

ditalini · 23/02/2025 16:58

Upton always had fairly soft features, hence scraggly beard to cover chin.

It may have made him feel uncomfortable throughout his post -pubertal life and that he wasn't "manly" enough. Male appearance standards are toxic in their own way.

His height may also have made him a target for behaviors that he wasn't comfortable with. I've seen tall, gentle, skinny boys picked on as easy prey that way.

I would say he’s also lost a significant amount of weight, looking at the ‘before’.

Bannedontherun · 23/02/2025 18:39

Have been thinking about the CSA image attacks on mumsnet, the disruption at the hearing, and now the use of PM to send CSA images, a bit too coincidental.

Who else would be doing this other than TRA’s?

I am not saying that all TRA’s have “minor interests” but clearly a section do.

I had become somewhat hard line as it was. But with that in mind and the latest musings from shon Faye…. You know us silly mothers are susceptible to fascism and mothers think in some strange incomprehensible way….. bla bla bla

So i have no sympathy left.

Forgive the analogy, we are watching the titanic of movements, hit the iceberg ,split in half, and slide beneath the sea

In slow motion.

duc748 · 23/02/2025 18:47

I'm sure there's plenty of people out there who wish MN didn't exist.

eatfigs · 23/02/2025 18:50

oldwomanwhoruns · 23/02/2025 16:05

Upton looks as if he has had a good bit of Facial feminisation surgery (nose job, nostril width reduction, brow lift, eyelid surgery, cheek augmentation, lip lift?? Just guessing, of course).
He'd have needed time out of view to recover from these. Does this fit in with him missing his graduation ceremony??

I think I recall reading on the University of Dundee website that all the graduation ceremonies that year were fully online because of Covid.

BonfireLady · 23/02/2025 18:53

Forgive the analogy, we are watching the titanic of movements, hit the iceberg ,split in half, and slide beneath the sea
In slow motion.

Rather aptly, the Titanic sank on 15th April... which is the date that the judge will hear a) NC's request to increase what is required for disclosure (e.g. Upton's phone, for original copies and metadata to support the Contemporaneous Notes that were relied on so heavily in court) and to add KS as a respondent and b) JR's request to decrease what is required for disclosure.

Regarding the slow motion, I guess Upton could sit on the deck playing music until it finally goes down.

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