NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #22

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21

This might be a stupid question, but how would the courts/judge know that Sandie (or Dr U for that matter, or anyone involved) are not reading these threads, or in fact not reading anything related to the case? Many people on previous threads have already said all the people involved aren't supposed to read anything about the case until it's over.

I was thinking that, and also who exactly at NHS Fife is and isn't allowed to follow the case.

JustBitetheKnotsOff · Today 21:32

It still takes some elbow grease, but hopefully a bit less!

I assume it's done on trust.

There is no way on this earth if I was going to be grilled by NC in July that I wouldn't be reading everything on the case so far! But then I have zero impulse control!

I remember a drive by scolder a couple of years ago accusing us all about being too interested in evidence and gave a slightly bizarre manifesto-y rant about society needing to move towards a less evidence based mindset.

Interesting! so in TRAland they would argue that using terms such as women face and comparing it to race appropriation is a false equivalence. So TRAs would condemn the latter as it is adopting stereotypical behaviours based on a form of cultural fetish that they are not entitled to as anyone playing at being a race different to themselves is denying material reality because DNA.

But since gender is a social construct, not based on a material reality they can do whatever they like, no harm no foul as no one is really being stomped over? Apart from us boring types who believe in XX and XY chromosome which TRAs think is an inconvenient truth or nebulous dog whistle. And so no one is allowed to mention chromosomes because it offends their delicate gendered souls which are super important and special and must be acknowledged legally, morally etc.

Please, someone, genuinely make it make sense. My head hurts. Is this what they really believe?

is there more information which they are meant to have disclosed that she is trying to bury?

IIRC, JR's request to reduce the disclosure relates to the original one that they (the respondents) haven't yet complied with. I think this is why the judge said something like "I still expect you to complete the original disclosure as per the order that was agreed under Judge [the previous one, can't remember the name] and if you don't, I'll follow the appropriate process for the failure to do so" (paraphrased).

I should think JR is skating on thin ice for applying to reduce it while simultaneously failing to comply with it, where that failure has contributed to the delay.

I expect she will oppose NC's new requests, but she also stated she would be applying to reduce the scope of the original disclosure order. That is, to be excused from revealing material that they should already have disclosed. This did not go down well with the judge.

Any application is possible with sufficient reason; how about "Fife is so generally incompetent that they really can't find it"?

Buy one of those silicon oven liners - saves a lot of mucking about as you can scrub under the tap then put back in. Thanks for the tip on the sugar soap tho - I'll use that on the sides

Yes but she has to have a go doesn't she - even if just to confound the phone request. I mean she must be desperate to avoid the phone being taken into evidence. Silly DU. If only the Dr had handed over the all the required paperwork the first time. Or even the second time. Three strikes... and suddenly they have your Whatsapps. Oh I bet there is gold in those messages - I can't wait to see what notes were written about the other staff!? And if DU is silly enough to lose the phone or delete anything...... well that is as good as an admission of guilt right there.

But clearly not aware that the separate NHS Scotland has nothing to do with devolution but was always a separate entity established in 1947...

I'd be amazed if the phone hasn't been reported as stolen by now.

Quite simply they cannot, and it is unrealistic to expect it to be the case

The graduation ceremony is on YouTube. The graduands go up in alphabetical order of surname and there is no one with the surname Upton.

University graduation is not private, it’s on the university website.
https://www.dundee.ac.uk/graduation/summer-2021

Lists of graduates names are published in the local paper.

A doctor’s graduation is matter of record with the GMC.

The graduation ceremony is filmed and put on YouTube.

So it’s very much in the public domain.

You’re missing the point. That’s irrelevant. They can still have the same trans policy if the trans law is UK level. They can stick an NHS Scotland badge on it but they don’t need an IB in every different Board drafting it.

The Summer 2021 graduation was not done in person, it was an online ceremony because Covid was still an issue. But Dr Upton definitely graduated. His name is on the list in the link provided by @0ctavia

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GytzMY1tgdQ&list=PLgPdWYi79WUQgNXM3PBkvuGjp1xSw02N_&index=12&pp=iAQB

This is a link to the online ceremony. The students, including Dr Upton, were represented by a photograph as their name was read out.

I would love to be a fly on the wall in the Fyfe bunker. I'm intrigued by the supposed attempt to settle. Sandie is in such a strong position that a settlement would have to involve compensation, costs, an apology and a statement of intent in relation to the treatment of female staff going forward. The political pressure on Fyfe to make this go away must be enormous but DrU is second respondent? Can a form of words be found that encompass him without dividing the respondents. Sandie can settle with Fyfe and proceed against DrU but how will he be funded. Idle speculation by me but intriguing.

I’ve Seen pp postulating on a settlement but I don’t think there’s been any formal reporting on that - or have I missed that?

Edited to say - I doubt either party will settle as theres too much at stake now

Q: can anyone launch a continuation thread or is it OP only?

@SternlyMatthews can’t see if anyone has answered your question above but my understanding of mumsnet etiquette is that the OP does any continuation threads required to ensure consistency and correct linking or delegates if they are not going to be around when the current thread is nearly full.

They would know if they mentioned something that was disclosed in court rather than had come up in their 'lived experience' to that date.

So if you were going to be grilled by the lovely Naomi, you'd best NOT read up on it all, would be my advice.

Which of course you would only see if you were reading up on it all.

THIS IS WHY WE TEACH SHAKESPEARE. The lies, the drama, the FAFO of life.

Isn't it to do with intersectionality too?

White women are seen as part of the patriarchy as we benefit from it - marrying white guys etc. So we seen to be complicit in the exploitation of minority groups. So we don't have any right to any claims of victimhood. So when we say "get out of our spaces" we are just being oppressors as per usual.

Meanwhile black women are not part of this as they suffer from real victimhood because of their race.

This is where a lot of uni students are coming from. They totally believe they are oppressors and have to atone for it and give minority groups everything they want.

regarding your comment that Fife have now received enough sunlight:

if I remember correctly, the fragrant Upton is not the only trans identified man who works for the Trust. Think there were at least two more. I’d like to know what the working arrangements are for them - changing rooms, toilets, and if clinical do they provide any ‘same sex’ care etc.

We use a silicon liner and it makes a big difference. For the rest of the oven, I simmer a pan of water in the oven for 30 mins, to loosen the grot, and then scrub using bicarb and hot water and the filth comes off surprisingly easily.