NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #22

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21

Just posting this as an aside. Someone said that when asked to complete on line forms which asked for gender to select 'other' and another box would open.
I have just purchased something on line from Dunelm. On the feedback from when it came to the gender option, I chose the "prefer to self describe" option and wrote: "Sex is female, I don't have a gender".

So thanks to whoever suggested that. I will use it from now on where I get the option.

Regardless of who has the most friends or supporters, surely the outcome will depend on the interpretation of the law though?

Both NC and JR wish to demonstrate that their client's weren't alone in their beliefs and the media are keen to support the side they have picked, but the tribunal isn't determined by either side's supporters.

Helen Joyce's description of one of the protestors at Balliol recently was as follows:

Although she did have something of the look of an Alphabet person about her, she was unmistakably female. If I’d had to guess I would have put her down as something ambiguous and low-effort, like non-binary demiboy.

So if asked to state my gender I'd be tempted to write 'LOW EFFORT NON-BINARY DEMIBOY'

Or, as I grew up very gender-questioning - if not actually 'dysphoric' - and still have a different internal version of how I actually present to the world, I could write
'Gender: Well, when I was a little girl .... then as a teenager.... then there was the issue of sexual orientation and how it relates to gender identity and biological sex.. and then.. [please see attached sheet].😂

Well they asked, didn't they?😏

I was intrigued so Googling I found that quote comes from HJ's article in 'The Critic' regarding her event at Balliol College earlier this month & how pathetic the TRA protester was. The article is "Gone in 90 seconds - Were my trans protestors the last gasp of campus censorship?"

https://thecritic.co.uk/gone-in-90-seconds/#:~:text=Although%20she%20did%20have%20something,say%20that%20to%20her%20face.

The Times article was a rewritten version of that in the Courier which was more specific in stating that there were twnety others comprising 17 females & 3 males who shared SP's stance that Dr Upton should not be in the female changing room. The information came from SP's solicitor so I'm pretty sure that the solicitor has had contact with all twenty & they confirmed their support for SP but equally said that they are too afraid to put their heads above the parapet by giving evidence.

The ET will be surely be interested in the fact that there are employees there who are stating they are too scared to speak up in defence of what is a pretty basic right. It speaks to the climate of fear.

There's so much BS on blue sky from the other side. Like "lets not go back to when we couldn't use changing rooms, swimming pools, try on clothes etc...." you always could - as your biological sex!

I am not sure that they always could. A man in women's clothes or with very obbvious breast growth might not always have been welcome in men's space. But that was the problem that needed to be fixed and that was the problem that protection for "gender reassignment" in the Equality Act 2010 was supposed to fix. It was supposed to mean safer access to men's spaces or failing that the provision of extra separate spaces. Not giving those men access to women's spaces instead.

I meant they always had access to these things via the options available to their biological sex. The implication from the blue sky posts is that they are going back to a time when they never had access at all.

Re colleagues who shared SP's objection to Upton using the women's changing room, I thought I remembered SP mentioning specific colleagues in her evidence. So just checked. On the first day of the tribunal when questioned by NC, SP said after the second time she left the changing room because Upton was in there, a female colleague was waiting outside too, also because she didn't want to go in there while he was in there. SP named this colleague and said the colleague had told her she was going to talk to management. Later on three other colleagues were mentioned by first name (by JR):
JR Y're only complainer re CR.
SP Only person who complained to manager
JR Charlene, Garry and Clare had also said had a problem?
SP Yes
JR Clare is AE consultant
SP Yes
JR They're not giving evidence nor anything in bundle by them?
SP No

And some HR departments really don't help themselves.

My erstwhile employer (a public sector body at least 1 major newspaper would have been very happy to attack) was involved in a staff dispute not long after the P&O fire and rehire fiasco.

The HR department thought they could get away with contradicting the law and failing to follow their own consultation policies. They asked for questions then issued an FAQ document that answered none of them (a couple they 'answered' with reference to the wrong law). Thr equality impact assessment was (a) rubbish and (b) clearly dated over a month after they had assured us they'd done one - and at least 3 months after the start of the process. They said they had taken extensive legal advice - it was 2 sentences, related to a different question than the one at issue. And they then seemed to think a threat to fire and rehire would de-escalate the situation.

They lost, comprehensively - and the lead (and primary obstruction/antagoniser) in HR was almost immediately promoted to head of department.

I wouldn't want to assume their gendah but good for Garry if he's a bloke unaffected by the changing room policy but voicing his objections.

What is clear to me is what needs abolishing is the GRC. Unless and until there is no such thing as a legally female bloke our spaces cannot be 100% single sex.

Yes, repeal the GRA, scrap the PC of gender reassignment in the Equality Act and stop allowing falsification of sex on identity documents

No, keep the PC of gender reassignment but define it more tightly as someone who is actually getting medical interventions. Men who take oestrogen need not to be discriminated against when heading into the gents loos.

I disagree. A man on oestrogen is still a man. And it is very poor medical practice to give anyone cross-sex hormones for the purposes of 'affirming gender identity' - that needs to stop too. I know my views are considered hardline by some but I stand by them.

Apologies @selffellatingouroborosofhate I misread 'gents loos' as 'ladies loos'. No, men with feminised features should not be discriminated against when using the gents. But they could be protected by the PC of disability.

Yup. There have been absolute horror shows who behaved badly on oestrogen.

But they could be protected by the PC of disability.

That's actually a good call.

NotAGentleReminder · Today 18:22

No, men with feminised features should not be discriminated against when using the gents. But they could be protected by the PC of disability.

Why? Should dope smokers get to claim a disability, if they struggle because they drug themselves? They don't do it at gunpoint.

It feels like it’s time to test whether gender ideology meets the Grainger test and meets the threshold for protection in the courts, because not every trans person has a gender dysphoria diagnosis that could be covered under disability. With other beliefs there is provision in the EA2010 to manifest your belief (eg religious dress) but exceptions when there are legitimate grounds to constrain manifestation of that belief (eg where some forms of religious dress interfere with infection control dress requirements in healthcare settings).

No, they should not. But doctors don't prescribe dope to illegal drug users to affirm their self-proclaimed need to smoke dope.

I was first arguing that men on oestrogen do not need the PC of GR to be protected from discrimination. Also that the medical profession should not be prescribing cross sex hormones (or hormonal blockers or drugs that can induce breast tissue growth in men) for the purposes of 'affirming gender identity'. I do not think 'gender medicine' involving surgery, or drugs that induce endocrine disturbance, should be done at all. Psychological therapies and treatment of any underlying mental illness, yes.

I was wondering if men with feminised features like gynaecomastia (growth of breast tissue in men) might be protected by the PC of disability if they were harrassed or excluded from the men's because of this appearance. But to be honest, I can't imagine that a man with gynaecomastia who was not pretending to be a woman would be given a hard time in the men's anyway.

My main point was that I don't think the PC of GR is necessary.

If they were given a "hard time" surely it would be the criminal law rather than the EA that was engaged? Though their protected status (if they had one) might exacerbate the offence.

Well the TRAs always tell us that criminal law will protect women from harm so there's no need to prevent transwomen accessing sìngle sex spaces. So I'm minded to remove the PC of gender reassignment and rely on current laws to prevent transwomen being hassled

NotAGentleReminder · Today 19:35

Thanks for your clarification, I obviously didn't have my understanding brain in at the time!