NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #22

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21

The links above have extracts from the witness statements as to exactly what the nurses had to put up with from this man in the changing room. They are eye-opening.

It promises to be an extraordinary case. Roll on June. I hope Newcastle ET have their IT sorted out.

Re the scolders I’m seeing threads appear that I’m eyeing with caution. The handwringing about the right wing awfulness women have unleashed by standing firm on their rights with a flurry of new posters (bots?) all agreeing with the first poster, for example. The contributors are getting more adept at tone but they don’t pass the sniff test. Seasoned FWRs are good at pulling them up on the lazy arguments and logic fails.

Go on them n what thread will go and give it a sniff test, or am i already on it lol

Trollhunting is verboten on MN. If you pay attention you’ll probably start to spot them.

Fenlandia · Today 18:30

Privacy for me and not for thee.

Yes, they're bullying, coercive control freaks and massive hypocrites, to boot, in my opinion. And that's just the side serving, accompanying the main dishes of perving.

A bumper crop of articles from the express

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/lying-scared-jk-rowling-calls-34764797?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/john-swinneys-same-sex-toilets-34764545?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/comment/would-john-swinney-want-wife-34760931?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

Go Daily Express, good to see someone pulling him up. Spineless weasel of a man.

Not sure if he has a daughter but would he want her massaging Isla on a Beauty Course? Or getting changed in the same room.

They must be getting a lot of clicks on these articles to want to keep them coming like this?!

Speaking to a Dundonian last weekend. I was interested to hear that a lot of the trans policy came from the Greens originally (along with a 75% carbon reduction target by 2030 - now abandoned) when they were in coalition with the SNP. I wonder why they’re sticking with the gender stuff so vigorously when it’s obviously a vote loser long term? Do they not realise what Tribunal cases are coming down the pike this summer? Their policies arent going to stand up to close scrutiny and Swinney might be the 4th First Minister to lose his position over the gender wars…

If the law and public opinion can't convince John Swinney on self-ID, maybe an eye-watering compensation bill will

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14435697/EUAN-McCOLM-law-public-opinion-convince-John-Swinney-self-ID-maybe-eye-watering-compensation-bill-will.html#

My neighbourhood papers of 20 years ago were absorbed by Reach and now produce minimal news and their websites are unreadable. We have a few local indies online/paper occasionals.

Is it mad for me to assume that these press articles are getting a wide audience?

The Dundee Courier is a proper daily newspaper. Scotland has lots of regional quality newspapers. The Scotsman is mainly Edinburgh, Herald is Glagow Press & Journal is Aberdeen and Courier is Dundee/ Fife.

I agree - the judgement was as bracing as that given in the DrU anonymity request, in both cases the judges just didn't buy the threats/fear of literal violence etc::
Judge Langridge last week ruled that “no specific instances of the ‘horrible comments’ are set out in the witness statement, and no particular events are identified in support of the feeling of being at risk”.
“The statements are unsupported by anything concrete at all,” she said in her judgement.

Is that 'bracing', or 'scathing'? Either way, the judge saw through the melodramatics

Ooooh indeed! Obviously this is a separate story and there are already separate threads about the Darlington nurses but it links so well to this thread too. The UK is waking up. Thank you Dr Upton for leading the way. It might not have been quite the waking up you intended but you'll just have to reconcile that bit in your Contemporaneous Notes I guess.

They are on the case all right.

"On Tuesday, NHS Fife declined to answer a series of questions submitted by The Courier relating to the case – including queries about decision making, impact assessments and current changing room guidelines."

Thank you, Judge Langridge.

<Adds 16 June to diary>

Sorry but the huge thanks has to go to Mrs Sandie Peggie who stood up and fought back.
If she hadn't stood up, and at great cost to herself, none of us would know about Upton. He'd have moved on from his 6mth in A&E and be someone else's problem. And it would all be swept under the carpet.

It’s the Courier’s local patch with all their usual contacts I suppose - but I think the Scottish papers smell blood. Either Swinney or Gray will be in their sights for this which is why they’ve not moved on like the English papers. They’ve already seen 3 First Ministers out of office largely on the back of this gender policy, so will be gunning for another - if NHS Fife have to make a big payout on this theres going to be hell to pay

Here here! She’s much braver than me

In fact here’s another one from the Courier today:

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/5190971/nhs-fife-policy-changing-room-tribunal/

(not old enough yet for an archive link sorry!)

Bravery can be contagious 😉 I work in the NHS and the last few weeks have led to some fairly honest discussions around this case with DEI colleagues and reminding them that women are actually people too! When it comes to decision making, it was clear that women barely feature at all. Yes, they’ll trot out a menopause session or something occasionally, but an actual meaningful commitment to the rights of women? It really doesn’t cross their mind and they do need to be reminded that women are people too.

Just as an aside, the two clay ghosts I made during the tribunal when the whole thing went down are out of the kiln this morning.

John Swinney has a son, and his wife has multiple scelorsis I believe.

Unfortunately most people I know here in Scotland dont really read the papers anymore, and get their news from word of mouth or social media (which, as we know, isn't always reliable)

edited to add - and many people I know vote SNP and read the National newspaper which of course will have a pro trans slant.

People might be pro-trans until the day it hits them in the face. They or their kid ends up in a single sex space with a bloke.

Just as an aside, the two clay ghosts I made during the tribunal when the whole thing went down are out of the kiln this morning.

So cute 🥰

This is the issue with a lot of things that don't directly affect individuals isn't it. Sexism, racism etc. it's hard to get people really properly on board if they are not disadvantaged by the issue.