NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

I do hope NC continues with the line that DU is very difficult to say no to. The judge cut her off on the basis that ED hadn't seen DU give evidence but in doing so clearly recognised what she was referring to!

NC It involved saying no to Beth, which we've seen is very difficult?

This is definitely a recurring theme.

Not just the country but around the world. I’m in Australia.

Sorry, I was catching up, I feel sick.

So patient consent, family consent, well and truly and the fucking window.

I am so so angry.

<National power grid strained to capacity>

Another reason for us wims to speak up and be counted!

Even if you think you don't have anything to add, just your presence helps - works in real life too to counter the bystander effect

i find the thought of this chilling. His boundaries on consent are so poor already.

Friday before half term. Courts should be empty by 2pm. 😆

@RedToothBrush

Why DOES the Equality Training have higher importance than the Safeguarding Training?

fucking brilliant question

Unless I've missed it, I wish NC would ask ED how many times she has been in the CR stripped to her underwear with just DU there. Or with DU and others.

The roster problem doesn't seem insurmountable UNLESS Dr U were to suddenly insist on weekend night shifts.

I'd have thought it harder to cope with being an experienced nurse down.

D Our concern was SP leaving a cubicle
NC The response to MJ (or MG) who agrees that no evidence SP left a bay, only presumably Beth's perception. Never had concerns re SP before. Staffing crisis and what if a similar incident in another area
ED Yes, I did say that

ED It cld have happened anywhere in the dept
NC If issue was the CR, it cld only happen in a supposedly SS space
ED I cldnt determine where incidents might happen. I was worried re CR and pat care issues
NC HR think no evidence for 2 missing issues, so only worry re CR/SS

ED No IX so cant say.
NC No prev concerns re SP?
ED Just the one above
NC Only Beth saying re missing issues?
ED Wld have to be Beth and no IX to say otherwise. Wld be part of the IX
NC Might only be one person, but no corroboration to u or HR
ED No other person reported

NC No one asked SP
ED For the IX
NC Never mentioned in call
ED Ask LC
NC Nor the SX meeting? She wasnt told as only discussed the CR issue
ED The CR incident was brought to light first
NC U said yday u learnt of both at same time

I have no idea about ETs but common sense and logic, I think, would suggest that the panel need evidence that either support or refute the claims being brought by either side - I don’t they can infer that from the documents alone as there may have been mitigating circs or precedents. NC working to establish no precedents a no mitigation for failure of due process with regard to suspension which might offer some sort of defence. Offering a defence is not a get out of jail free card but it might impact the panel’s decisions. It will be very hard for them to go that route based on what we hear here.

Lurking since Monday but haven't posted. I hope there's more like me and this is hundreds of women (any men here? Hello!) watching this case.

Go Sandie.

Mr Upton, I hope sincerely you cease to treat other human beings until you have come to terms with human biology.

I haven't attached a link because it is quite long, but read Mountaingoat23's post on page 13 of this thread, at 20:54

I'm lurking too, while WFH

it's gripping stuff

NC Evid precipitated by CR issue and brought other issues to light then too
ED Yes. Was part of the same thing
NC BY end of convo w Jackie, GM said SP shld be SX for patient safety
ED Needed palnning for an IX and to prevent further incidents
NC U cld have said special leave

whilst we work out rotas
ED These rotas are very complex. wks in advance to work out^
NC KS seems to think this was feasible. See her email of 30 Dec: [reads re not having same shifts and KS thinks she's sorted]
ED KS has no responsibility for med rostas nor nursing

Rotas couldn’t have been that complex to work out - Sandie was working the same two nights each week - two twelve hour shifts!

I’m sure we could have sorted it out. . .

All rise for Judge

NC [reads re datex and nurse leaving cubicles]

ED Yes, that was in the datex

NC Can you explain datex and what we're looking at

ED Body of datex, tick boxes

NC Quite a few fields

ED Yes, tick boxes and drop down menus. Anything that happens to AE it

I am fairly sure that establishing a time line events will be the bread and butter of any employment tribunal regarding allegations of harassment and bullying and thats one of the first things a judge will take a look at.

Asking for a timeline is usually one of the first things you are asked / advised to do when bringing a grievance / complaint so the fact that DU was allowed to be so vague at the end of December is even stranger.

so in April when he changes dept:

They seem fully aware at this point that the whole patient safety is a crock of shit. They know the patient safety issues DU brought up are more to do with his perception of how she treated him personally. They know Sandie is of no risks to patients.

It's all about appeasing him until they could be free of him.

It's fucking appalling.

defaults to me being the investigator but I can change

NC Where is the info re leaving patients

ED Not here but there are other boxes

NC Yr clear in another box, the datex includes leaving patients

ED I have 15 datex per week. This will be 100s back so unable to clarify

Now ED is the investigator again!

What is crystal clear is that CR wasn’t enough for SX so they fabricated events

I know junior doctor rotas can be more tricky, but reminds me of when I was on a rota with an orthodox jewish colleague. He couldn’t work Fridays or Saturdays, so it just meant he worked every Sunday. It wasn’t that difficult.

I mostly lurk around MN, but am local to this and have dozens of friends/acquaintances/relatives and colleagues who are all watching via this thread, and TT, so have changed my usual name for this thread as not to link to other outing posts.