NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

Any idea of views? Are they all captured? (Is Doctors net a real thing?!)

ED was newly promoted and clearly over promoted. But if something is new to you then dont just rely on others to guide you, check you are getting good advice! And you shouldnt need good advice to know you dont judge an issue before hearing both sides.

A LOT of doctors are captured.

Yes. NHS Fife appear to have colluded with DU, giving him the opportunity to alter minutes, and ensure that a one-sided and compromised investigation was launched. The complaint should have been dismissed, should never have reached where we are now.

DEI gestapo doing a fine job. Fuckwits!
To think not so long ago it felt that women's rights were getting that bit closer to men's. I remember reading about things such as crash test dummies amongst others that had previously been based on the male body. Now reading about the change to BMI and haemoglobin reference tables it's a terrible step backwards.

It’s a real thing but you need to show medical ID to sign up.

Yes, doctors.net.co.uk is a real thing. From what a pro-SP friend told me there are mixed views. A lot of women doctors supporting SP, some male doctors agreeing with DU that women can't always insist on seeing a women doctor / nurse. Quite the bunfight. Be interesting to see if/how the case is covered in the medical press.

Yes it would seem it was not disclosed and when NC came upon it she a-plied to add KS as a respondent too which I think has been agreed so there are now 3. I suspect a lot of the failure to disclose is at the hands of KS who being fully TRA never saw the ET coming as expected to bully SP into compliance or exit.

Our entire (health service) organisation has just been invited to take part in "Conflict, Bullying and Harassment Awareness Sessions" - think I'll go along and raise this case as an example!!

I can't remember the paper, but over the last few days a work experience student at a local paper has provided the best headlines e.g. 'I'm biologically female says biologically male doctor'. I'm just waiting to see what that student comes up with today, my suggestion is:
'Tribunal told it would need an expert witness to say whether biological male is a biological male'

Thank you @nauticantand @Ikky . My day off today finally so had the pleasure of your thread in real time!

Younger doctors a lot of capture and any that are not are terrified of speaking up because they are struggling to get training posts.

Older doctors might have a better understanding of sex and the importance in medical care but I wouldnt be surprised id Dr Searle didnt try the its complicated" line as obviously a TRA.

ED has done such a disservice to the knowledge and skills of nurses everywhere.

Could it be that people like KS had already formed a dislike of the "stern" Sandie Peggie and were taking the opportunity to get rid of her from A & E. Not realising that someone with a reputation for being stern was not likely to take it all lying down.

I am speculating and if MN thinks that is wrong, they can withdraw my post.

I believe there has still to be an application/ruling to join KS as R3. That would be part of the procedural issues J said need dealt with tomorrow.

Thank you so much to our thread and TT providers!

I think it was important today that NC established that ED didn’t personally drive the moves against SP - it was DU plus NHS Fife policy and disorganization. Ie the respondents.

Would be interesting to see screenshots of doctors.net.uk showing what the reaction is. With names etc. redacted of course.

@NotMaroonButRaspberry I am glad you were correctly diagnosed eventually, at least. Sorry that it took so long.

I was told I had chronic fatigue syndrome as a teenager, which overshadowed future consultations when I developed new symptoms and needed to know what was causing them. I now also have b12 deficiency and this took ages to diagnose because I was already having my usual 'CFS' flare of exhaustion, brain fog, unexplained low grade fevers and autonomic disturbance, before developing neurological and circulatory symptoms that prompted further blood tests. Being a woman and having a history of anxiety doesn't seem to help when trying to get to the bottom of unexplained symptoms. I have to say that anxiety has improved considerably since getting iron and b12 treatment, much more than it did with CBT!

It's her job and perhaps even her career on the line. In those circumstances bravery is difficult and clearly she's not made of sterner stuff like Sandie Peggie is.

In my experience of the emergency dept., doctors quite like a stern nurse because they're very good at crowd control!

I had an appointment last year to take a sample from my womb lining. When I was lying there I heard the trainee doctor (a man who I had kindly agreed could stay and observe) asking the much older female consultant if they should ask me how I identified. She told him no, and to never ask that in a department where women are getting tests only women need. Which was reassuring because I was about to say he had to leave if he couldn't respect I was there to be checked for a cancer only affecting women

IANAL but it seems to me that the Scottish Government’s handling of the Salmond case is an appropriate comparator here.

The SG’s case collapsed on a technicality - the person assigned to investigate had had prior contact with the complainants and so the court found the process to be tainted with apparent bias and deemed unlawful (i.e. did not comply with procedures rather than illegal). Different type of case and different type of court, but surely this investigation is also tainted with apparent bias?

Sandie, NC, and their funders might want rulings on the substantive matter on SSS and whether it is harassment to call a TW a man, but they might not get that far if it falls on NHS Fife’s procedural failings?

Will be in July when the trial restarts, though there's an application before the judge tomorrow to add her as a named respondent aswell

Thanks again @nauticant .

As someone who has struggled a lot with vitamin and mineral deficiencies as my body doesn't process things very well I am now so grateful that my GP surgery's approach has been to focus on getting my levels to a point where I feel healthy rather than focusing on the exact range of my test results.