NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

They were so focused on protecting Upton's right to pretend to be a woman at work and not be challenged on it (his 'protected belief') that everything else went out the window.

Upton had some power, didn't he?

Exactly -

Yesterday: I was designated lead for the IX; I was investigating, we started the investigation by making a plan and calling witnesses

Today: I had not started the investigation.

A total embarrassment. A strong wind blew overnight and she's completely changed her story. How unbelievably perfect she is as a witness for NC.

DU also perfect/narcissitic, Sandy calm/blonde, now Esther the quaking flake - It's almost like they were picking these characters for a fictional write up... AND noone actually injured/hurt/traumatised. Did Sex Matters know how good this could be. I imagine they had an idea it was a good one to pursue, but this scenario plus these particular witnesses with their particular characteristics must be waaay better than they ever hoped

I assume JR has now had a word with her!

I imagine even JR wouldn’t stoop so low as to discuss the case with this witness mid evidence.

NC She's making it up?

ED SHe has no responsibility. U need to ask Kate

NC If real concern was keeping them apart, even if tricky step 1 was to look at rota and maybe put SP on leave for a shift or 2

ED Was to protect both staff and patients and keep them separate. Was a big

The chain of power went upwards from Upton to KS to Chris McKenna (the latter really needs to be called, he was the one pulling the chain imo)

task

NC Yr really saying took til April to sort this

ED Also needing to protect all mwmbers and witnesses

NC What made her return work

ED Beth moved to anaesthetics so we changed her shifts

NC If just a practical problem to separate them, is much less drastic?

I might name change to SchrödingersInvestigation

NC Yr answer to AG [new page] you say re suspension and bringing SP in. You phoned her on the 3rd, and made clear it was just a convo and not a formal part of the process
ED I made it clear to come in
NC TU rep
NC She said she was happy w/out rep
NC But she cldnt expect one

to be on hand though?
ED Correct
NC She thought an informal chat, but found you and AS. She asked if needed a rep and u said not this time but next time
ED Absolutely not
NC If u are right and offered her a chose. It isnt fair on her is it?

ED She was given the option for union rep
NC [find different page] Look again at terms of ref re CR, that's not a pat safety matter
ED No
NC You told the ET that patient safety concerns..
ED Also the safety of SP and Beth
NC What are unsafe from?
ED Further interaction,

SP and Dr U were so unsafe from further interaction that they had to immediately suspend Sandie!

So HR told her no case regarding patient safety yet she and then uppers persisted twits

NC But no need to suspend. Much less drastic and economical

ED SX in place to give us time to commense IX and find a solution

NC AG Interviewed ppl in April so didnt need a SX Felt best decision at the time. Proper process and support for ppl

I agree. But I do think ED has picked up from somewhere that she needs a different version today.

And there it is. The thing that changed.

She was commenting on her FB page rather than having any impact on education itself. We don’t like or agree with her views, of course, but the point is she can’t be sacked for posting her views on FB. If she had been employed to teach sex-Ed and refused to do so that would be a different issue. Given the climate of trying to issue paper on non crime hate incidents etc this is a victory for all - even though we disagree and hugely dislike her PoV. It is so important that we don’t compel those, even those with abhorrent views, into our own way or no way or it won’t be long before they do the same to us!!!

I am very much noting two crucial things in this case.

The time line
and
The level of influence and power Upton had.

I am fairly sure that establishing a time line events will be the bread and butter of any employment tribunal regarding allegations of harassment and bullying and thats one of the first things a judge will take a look at.

NC has made a point of highlighting power and control issues surrounding Upton. The judge can't ignore that because of the way its been done.

The lack of questioning of this level of power is now really being highlighted in ED's testimony.

In this sense, Upton has not been able to control the narrative to date despite attempts and actually when the defence have cross examined their own witnesses are only serving to highlight these two central issues.

ED Beth moved to anaesthetics so we changed her shifts

Did a chill run through anyone else at the thought of DU being in anaesthetics?

So the second DU goes they breathe a sigh of relief and think things can just go back to normal, now they just need to sort out Sandie getting back to work.

More than a man arguably

I mean, I know we're not surprised by any of this, but they had NEVER had to suspend anyone before in A+E.

And the first time something is so serious to warrant a suspension? It's Dr Upton's hurt feelings.

NC Yr aware suspension a last resort
ED Yes
NC When Sx an AE nurse in pressed service u need to think long and hard
ED Yes, not an easy decision to make
NC [find new page] JH's email to HR ppl where she describes interview w you [reads re SX being the last resort and said never a SX before in AE] Vanishingly rare?

NC [look at new doc, reads re issue is sharing CR]

ED That's what initiated IX

NC WHat worried u That and pat safety

NC One obvious mitigation for CR wld be not to have overlapping shifts, but another to find single occupancy room for DU

ED I seeked advice from HR lead who

Yup. Thought the same thing!

I want NC to ask what support was put in place for SP.

NC She thought an informal chat, but found you and AS. She asked if needed a rep and u said not this time but next time

You need to let people know in advance of the meeting. I can't believe that within NHS Fife there wasn't someone able to sit down with ED and go through the procedural steps with her.

This is procedurally really important.

You can ONLY suspend a person if the reason is reasonable otherwise the suspension is not lawful.

This really looks like it was just on DU's demand. That's not reasonable. The fact that she was returned when he moved department indicates that there was no need for her to be suspended (other than to keep DU happy).

Exactly. So the risk was never patient safety.

said Beth was entitled to the CR

NC ISla Bumba Yes

NC He is upsetting ppl and shld have had single space

ED I was told I cldnt exclude from CR

NC I understand trust committed to this but wld have solved problem practically I took advice from HR and wasnt an option