NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

Dropped Fife in the doodoo

Argh! This is the typical overreach of transactivism. Because a woman has boundaries related to her rights, ergo she must be a risk to others who claim to be trans, even when there is evidence (30 years of it, in this case) that the woman in question has always behaved professionally/with decency.

Exactly - JR could be blamed for this obvious tampering.
I am slightly worried that this could be the end of the TT reporting - it may be compromising witnesses

Edited to add - they may not be able to do it live and instead have to wait until all witnesses have finished

There should a been a clear message sent out to everyone involved that the process would be fair and objective, especially given the unwise emails being bandied around.

I mean, I know we're not surprised by any of this, but they had NEVER had to suspend anyone before in A+E.

And the first time something is so serious to warrant a suspension? It's Dr Upton's hurt feelings.

NC Yr aware suspension a last resort
ED Yes
NC When Sx an AE nurse in pressed service u need to think long and hard
ED Yes, not an easy decision to make
NC [find new page] JH's email to HR ppl where she describes interview w you [reads re SX being the last resort and said never a SX before in AE] Vanishingly rare?

The 'Christopher McKenna' who's named as Upton's 'Responsible Officer' on his GMC registration? (the second registration, that is - under the 'Elisabeth' name)

I'm not working today, and decided this morning to try and count how many different posters were on this thread, thinking there might be 30 or 40 of us.

I gave up counting at 200 😁

At first I thought it was lots of name changes, but you can't namechange on a thread you've already posted on, so that's more than 200 people on here, all supporting Sandie. And quite a few newcomers who have been peaked by this shite.

NC It involved saying no to Beth, which we've seen is very difficult?

ED I was told by equality that I couldnt exclude TW

NC One way was to...

J She hasnt heard the previous evidence so she cant answer that..so dont ask the same Q and we want to finish today

JR Can we have a break soon?

J We'll do that now

[short break]

Thanks iccky

Everything was in Upton's favour.

Can't ask him to stop using the female changing room, because this means you are challenging his belief that he's a woman and you're not allowed to do that under any circumstances. Or allow anyone else to do it.

Could ask SP and did, but she refused. And why should she? It's a female changing room.

And then Upton starts pushing.

Time - to walk the dogs. Will probably see you all in another thread and a half.

Yes, JR not allowed to discuss case with witness during testimony. However, clear smells of someone else breaking the rules and telling KD that she was throwing them under a bus and there would be consequences. Although reading TT there are two distinctions that would be argued with regard to these seeming discrepancies: discussion about initial
investigation and the what KD describes as the ‘progression’ of investigation when she was replaced as lead. It will be hard for JR to argue that KD was just prepping the IX because, as NC is now drawing out, suspension should not happen lightly and the fact that 4 weeks had passed with no progress can’t be understood as ‘prep’ time for IX - either IX is underway or it’s not as suspension is a very serious issue.

cue

The sound of kettles being switched on around the country, and toilets flushing!

And don't forget lurkers like me, who are flitting between here and TT and enjoying other posters' comments but haven't got anything useful to add!

'I was just following orders' ain't a great defence in the long run.

You still potentially end up in front of the firing squad.

Pick your poison and whether you want to retain your dignity and integrity.

Worse case, if you absoluetely have to you shunt it upstairs so its not your responsibility. So upstairs end up on the stand not you.

I do not feel even a jot of sympathy for ED at this point. But I'm also angry that she's let upstairs off the hook.

So again the suspension is about something that MIGHT happen?

Sandie MIGHT mistreat transgender patients??

a) That really doesn't follow from not wanting a man in your changing room, where you are undressing and having an expectation of privacy

and
b) We all MIGHT do lots of things! Who knows!

NC This isnt pat safety is it?
ED Ithink it's both. Keeping them separate but if SP walks out is safety
NC If the alleg is true. GM thinks is a pat safety issue. It must be unwilling to work tog?
ED It's both. Dont expect confrontation betwenn staff?
NC But CR isnt
ED No

C But it's about DU being a man in the CR. It's ve specific to the presence in CR
ED She felt she shld be there
NC Forget that aspect. CR cant justify SX can it
ED It's both. You cant separate the 2 issues
NC It's clear from emails [reads re allegations and datix and leavng

NC [reads re leaving but not yet having a response from SP] Melanie Gorgenson to MSF says in email re Jackie's advice and potential of others being treated in thsi manner
ED The IX hadnt taken place
NC But if nothing in alleg u dont launch a full FC?

NC MG is trying to understand what pat safety issue is. The possibility the C might point out DU a man to other patients
ED That's not my interpretation
JR WHat have u read out
NC I havent. She's trying to understand, and this nothing to do w 2 missing issues. Suggesting Tidentified patients might be at risk. Do u agree?
Patients undergoing a similar process..
ED We do treat transitioning patients
NC So pats w GR PC
ED We have transgender patients
NC So concern she might mistreat GR patients
ED U need to ask Melanie
NC So not yr concern
No

1st Am Tweets from TT

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1890336266614407533.html

Completely.

Thanks ickky!

What's the situation in these ETs?

Do the panel get the hospital suspension policy and then look to see whether it was followed themselves? Or do they have to rely on NC drawing it out?

Because even without the bundle, just the dates given on SP's claim against the NHS is enough to work out that they completely bungled it

ED has just admitted that she thought equality told her it was impossible to have boundaries with TW and to question TW because TW are a sacred cast.

What happened to all the money spent on safeguarding training that is completely counter to this, that she ALSO had.

Why DOES the Equality Training have higher importance than the Safeguarding Training?

J She hasnt heard the previous evidence so she cant answer that..so dont ask the same Q and we want to finish today

Ooh, judge being a bit tetchy.

ED Beth moved to anaesthetics so we changed her shifts

HOLY FUCK

They allowed him to move to a rotation where patients lack capacity, for both brief and extended periods of time.

This actually brought a tear to my eye. One of my girls is learning the pipes and there's a lot of work within the piping community to address the historic sexism and misogyny (https://www.thepipingcentre.co.uk/play/other-play/the-stand-project) so it is great to see this support. My daughter is really passionate about women in piping and insisted on buying one of these badges for all her friends who are learning with her. That was a definite proud mum moment.