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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

1000 replies

nauticant · 13/02/2025 15:59

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

OP posts:
Thread gallery
35
pikantna · 14/02/2025 09:04

I don't think I have ever checked the identity of the owner of any hotel I have stayed in, goodness knows what ideological thought crimes I am thus guilty of by association

RethinkingLife · 14/02/2025 09:06

wrt to the upside down or "bizarro world" (upthread) we're inhabiting viz the ET, Sarah Haider on the tension between effective activism and intellectual honesty (I found it thought-provoking):

There is a fundamental disconnect between the functions of two different classes of “discourse participants” — those who use language to think and discover truth and those who use it as a means to power.

The activist game, to sum in one sentence, is about results. The goal of a “good” activist is to achieve the ends as quickly as possible — as ethically as this might allow. Her morality is rooted in the goodness of the ends she works towards, indisputably noble means to attain them are not required.

The thinker game is about truth. The goal is to uncover reality as it is - to achieve a true map of the real world (and hopefully, to be the first to do it). Reflecting reality accurately requires honesty — with oneself and with others — and a strict adherence to principled conduct. Although all fields have some degree of competition, knowledge-building is inherently not a zero-sum game. Truth builds upon itself.

The activist, meanwhile, lives in a world of scarcity — limited time, limited funds, limited public attention. To her, not winning is the same as losing: every minute in which her goals are not achieved is a minute in which a harm has been achieved. There is a cost to delay.
Meanwhile, from the thinker’s perspective, the only activism that doesn't look like dishonorable demagoguery is, in practice, ineffective activism.

newsletter.sarahhaider.com/p/on-effective-activism-and-intellectual?

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 14/02/2025 09:07

Still really pissed we can't watch this 'live' anymore :(

How can the panel NOT rule in Sandie's favour after all of this? I mean so what if she stayed at a Trump Hotel (so have loads of people!)

ThatDaringMintCritic · 14/02/2025 09:08

SmudgeHughes · 13/02/2025 22:02

@ThatDaringMintCritic do you know roughly how opinion is falling there?

Not really. I only asked as my friend had mentioned another topic being discussed on there once and I wondered if it was a hot topic within the profession. As I gather the thread has now been removed, I guess it is!

nauticant · 14/02/2025 09:11

The reason why Trump keeps on cropping up is because it was admitted by Sandie Peggie in her evidence:

https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1886739074452443248

It's not because of her staying in a hotel.

But obviously it should count for nothing and is clearly being used as a smear.

OP posts:
Signalbox · 14/02/2025 09:11

rebmacesrevda · 14/02/2025 08:57

The mental image of those big pants is just horrible 😂

Every time he says "I'm a woman", I think of the "lady" in Little Britain. It's awful but it's in my head now and it won't get out!

He knows he needs to keep reminding the judges that he’s a laydee in case they forget.

stickygotstuck · 14/02/2025 09:12

murasaki · 13/02/2025 23:26

Really there needs to be a widespread campaign by men for men about expanding the bandwidth of being male. So people could be happy wearing what they want, feel OK in male spaces, and not decide they want to invade ours. This isn't a problem created by women, and yet we seem to be the only ones having to deal with the consequences.

Very much this!

Women have enough shit to sort out.

GreySkirt · 14/02/2025 09:12

Shetlands · 14/02/2025 08:27

I'm just chuckling thinking of all the busy MumsNetters charging around this morning, throwing laundry and dishes into their washers, answering 50 emails a minute, racing through breakfast meetings, calling clients early, telling the boss they're WFH today, all so they can clear a few hours to glue themselves to court updates. 💐

I’m so annoyed we can’t listen/view live - I was able to do some mundane work tasks at the same time, but I’ve been very unproductive these last few days!

Wonder if one of the unforeseen costs of this has been a big dip in GDP specifically this week (obviously aside from the longer term efforts & effects of battling this cult).

RethinkingLife · 14/02/2025 09:12

nauticant · 14/02/2025 09:11

The reason why Trump keeps on cropping up is because it was admitted by Sandie Peggie in her evidence:

https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1886739074452443248

It's not because of her staying in a hotel.

But obviously it should count for nothing and is clearly being used as a smear.

Yes and ED mentioned SP talked about staying in a Trump hotel.

rebmacesrevda · 14/02/2025 09:15

Slightly tangential but bear with me...

If you didn't know about Trump's hotels in Scotland, you won't know about Michael Forbes, a farmer in Aberdeenshire who became a national hero after refusing to sell his home to Trump. It was a real David and Goliath story.

There's a documentary You've Been Trumped, and a podcast Trumped on BBC Sounds. His behaviour was appalling, using illegal intimidation to try to oust the locals from the land he wanted to build on. All endorsed by the Scottish Government at the time, of course (they have since admitted they cocked up!)

Scotland had beef with Trump long before he got into politics...

Datun · 14/02/2025 09:18

nauticant · 14/02/2025 09:11

The reason why Trump keeps on cropping up is because it was admitted by Sandie Peggie in her evidence:

https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1886739074452443248

It's not because of her staying in a hotel.

But obviously it should count for nothing and is clearly being used as a smear.

Ah, got it.

given that context, I would assume she's talking about the EO's

ImpPeril · 14/02/2025 09:19

WeaselCheeks · 14/02/2025 08:36

I've not been following the case blow by blow - has NC pointed out that DU is pre-op? Would have thought that would be a pretty solid blow - I think when most people are thinking "I'm ok with trans women in women's changing rooms", they're thinking of fully transitioned tw.

The idea of a woman of being confronted by a swinging meat and two veg would probably give even a lot of the "be kind" lot pause, because surely it's not particularly kind to expose unconsenting women to male genitalia, particularly in a setting where they may be getting undressed...

Sorry, I'm behind, but this is an interesting point. How does this sit with indecent exposure or similar, if the other users of a female only changing room are unaware?

Lovelysummerdays · 14/02/2025 09:20

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 14/02/2025 08:34

I feel like they're misconstruing the Trump comments. Although I don't know SP at all and she's entitled to her own beliefs, so maybe it's me misconstruing it.

I think many of us are relieved that under Trump it's been ordered to stop the medical transitions of minors. I suppose if I said this on a whim someone might also think I support Trump who is odious and has also done a lot of damage to women's reproductive rights and healthcare.

And I think it's a bit of a clutch to assume that if someone stays in a Trump hotel it's purely because they support Donald Trump.

Exactly. I’ve stayed in Turnberry a few times, I like the big, old, countryside hotel experience. I have kids now and stay at the Crieff hydro. I don’t think it says much about my political leanings.

Waitwhat23 · 14/02/2025 09:22
Magnify Rick Moranis GIF

I'm rather chuffed at being referred to as a sleuth by Lisa MacKenzie re: the NHS staff discounts!

If NC does bring it up today, I may have to pop on a deerstalker and wear it around the house.

RedToothBrush · 14/02/2025 09:23

NotLikeACourt · 14/02/2025 09:04

You have NO idea how accurate you are!!!

More than this, I'm seeing something different this court case.

Not only is it the usual suspect following this case, but there's a lot more women who haven't followed cases before watching this one. AND I'm seeing a lot of comments about husbands doing the same.

Its not quite viral, but its definitely picking up a LOT more interest than even the ERCC case. And I think the press coverage is reflecting this rather than driving it too.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 14/02/2025 09:23

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 13/02/2025 21:12

Oh don't worry items for wife work are made to fit women! It was nigh on impossible to find pushchair 6'4" DH could push comfortably (thank god for the tall, progressive Dutch). Still searching for an vacuum we can both use without one of us getting backache.

Ah yes, mirrors may be positioned for men, but sink and kitchen work surface heights are designed for the average woman's height. I have to bend my creaky knees to avoid backache on the rare occasions I do some washing up.

Merrymouse · 14/02/2025 09:26

RethinkingLife · 14/02/2025 09:06

wrt to the upside down or "bizarro world" (upthread) we're inhabiting viz the ET, Sarah Haider on the tension between effective activism and intellectual honesty (I found it thought-provoking):

There is a fundamental disconnect between the functions of two different classes of “discourse participants” — those who use language to think and discover truth and those who use it as a means to power.

The activist game, to sum in one sentence, is about results. The goal of a “good” activist is to achieve the ends as quickly as possible — as ethically as this might allow. Her morality is rooted in the goodness of the ends she works towards, indisputably noble means to attain them are not required.

The thinker game is about truth. The goal is to uncover reality as it is - to achieve a true map of the real world (and hopefully, to be the first to do it). Reflecting reality accurately requires honesty — with oneself and with others — and a strict adherence to principled conduct. Although all fields have some degree of competition, knowledge-building is inherently not a zero-sum game. Truth builds upon itself.

The activist, meanwhile, lives in a world of scarcity — limited time, limited funds, limited public attention. To her, not winning is the same as losing: every minute in which her goals are not achieved is a minute in which a harm has been achieved. There is a cost to delay.
Meanwhile, from the thinker’s perspective, the only activism that doesn't look like dishonorable demagoguery is, in practice, ineffective activism.

newsletter.sarahhaider.com/p/on-effective-activism-and-intellectual?

Yes! and ironically, this all sounds very Trumpy.

Trump announces he'll put Tariffs on UK imports because of VAT and I think '"ha, ha, ha, that's not how VAT works, won't he feel silly when he finds out!"

I read the RCN guidance on protected characteristics and think "That isn't the law! Won't they be embarrassed when they check the legislation!".

The truth is that I should be embarrassed for getting to middle age and thinking they care.

(Related: believing that prominent remainers who could explain the intricate details of EU trade would apply that same critical thinking to women's rights issues.)

Notaflippinclue · 14/02/2025 09:26

Public sectors definitely last private sector wants to make money and wont hire potential troublemakers

GreySkirt · 14/02/2025 09:27

I’m still a bit lost on the timelines - when did DU allege the two patient safety concerns, and when did they supposedly take place?

big girl pants on fire

NebulousHog · 14/02/2025 09:28

Waybackmachine may be helpful for those of you trying to find where policies have been removed.

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 14/02/2025 09:29

I think its the fact its the NHS denying biology that makes this case all the more interesting.

LeavingBigLaw · 14/02/2025 09:29

What time do we start today? 🤔

NebulousHog · 14/02/2025 09:30

There would be no need for women to be greeted by meat and two veg though - surely he was wearing undies?

Please someone tell me he was wearing undies...?!

NebulousHog · 14/02/2025 09:31

@LeavingBigLaw

They said 10am

So I reckon 10:26

Projectme · 14/02/2025 09:32

Correct me if I'm wrong but it's the 'last' day of this hearing isn't it? due to be schedule for more in July?

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