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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

1000 replies

nauticant · 13/02/2025 15:59

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

OP posts:
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35
RethinkingLife · 14/02/2025 09:32

GreySkirt · 14/02/2025 09:27

I’m still a bit lost on the timelines - when did DU allege the two patient safety concerns, and when did they supposedly take place?

big girl pants on fire

Uptonself doesn't know. Prevaricating about it, can't pin it down, but definitely knows it wasn't snicker bar kid (which would pin it to Halloween).

We need a clear timeline but the chances of getting one with verifiable dates? We may need the application for disclosure of

  • shift rosters
  • correspondence with the BMA
and that might be July before we know about these even if the application is granted (tbd today, I think).
SelfPortraitWithHagstone · 14/02/2025 09:32

NebulousHog · 14/02/2025 09:30

There would be no need for women to be greeted by meat and two veg though - surely he was wearing undies?

Please someone tell me he was wearing undies...?!

Well, he definitely was on the 28th, because he told us specifically that they were his big girl pants...

GreySkirt · 14/02/2025 09:32

Projectme · 14/02/2025 09:32

Correct me if I'm wrong but it's the 'last' day of this hearing isn't it? due to be schedule for more in July?

Correct

rebmacesrevda · 14/02/2025 09:32

NebulousHog · 14/02/2025 09:30

There would be no need for women to be greeted by meat and two veg though - surely he was wearing undies?

Please someone tell me he was wearing undies...?!

Women's undies are not designed to contain male genitalia. Sorry to be graphic, but if my brain is going to be stained by these thoughts I want to share them.

Greyskybluesky · 14/02/2025 09:32

pikantna · 14/02/2025 09:04

I don't think I have ever checked the identity of the owner of any hotel I have stayed in, goodness knows what ideological thought crimes I am thus guilty of by association

There'll be Upton supporters crowing all over the internet about Sandie staying in a Trump hotel.
But if they've ever stayed in a hotel somewhere like Dubai or the Far East I hope they checked the owner's credentials and working practices thoroughly. So many hotels there were built using slave labour.
Hypocrites.

WellIwasaGiraffeonce · 14/02/2025 09:33

NebulousHog · 14/02/2025 09:30

There would be no need for women to be greeted by meat and two veg though - surely he was wearing undies?

Please someone tell me he was wearing undies...?!

I can only confirm he was wearing a bra.

Hild0 · 14/02/2025 09:34

WellIwasaGiraffeonce · 14/02/2025 09:33

I can only confirm he was wearing a bra.

Stuff with socks covered in plaster dust.

GreySkirt · 14/02/2025 09:35

WellIwasaGiraffeonce · 14/02/2025 09:33

I can only confirm he was wearing a bra.

As any women knows all to well WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU WEAR A BRA WHEN YOU DIDNT NEED TO

Shetlands · 14/02/2025 09:36

SP's political views are irrelevant to whether she's entitled to a single-sex changing room. As I said in a previous post, they wouldn't have treated her differently if she'd expressed admiration for Biden.

It might come as a shock to liberal/left people that Trump isn't as despised as we might think. Look at the rising support here for Farage and Reform. We live in a democracy and as much as I might disagree with SP's politics, she's an experienced nurse with an unblemished record of 30 years service who wants her female only changing room to remain single-sex. I admire her courage in standing up for that.

Merrymouse · 14/02/2025 09:36

Greyskybluesky · 14/02/2025 09:32

There'll be Upton supporters crowing all over the internet about Sandie staying in a Trump hotel.
But if they've ever stayed in a hotel somewhere like Dubai or the Far East I hope they checked the owner's credentials and working practices thoroughly. So many hotels there were built using slave labour.
Hypocrites.

If they are I hope they are thinking about the implications of living in a country where your rights depend on your political beliefs.

AuntMunca · 14/02/2025 09:37

On the tax question and crowd-funding: to be taxable it would have to have a taxable source. So crowd-funding to start or grow a business is likely to be taxable (depending on the facts). Pocket money given to children isn't as presumably the source is parental concern for their children (not covered by the Taxes Acts). In Sandie's case, the source is presumably the donors' support for Sandie - again a non-taxable source.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 14/02/2025 09:38

With regards Trump, it should also be noted that the reported comments would be from 2022 or 2023, I think, so pre-trump being re-elected and all of the associated madness. There is a tendency to view any comments as supporting what Trump is doing now which may not be true

Greyskybluesky · 14/02/2025 09:38

RethinkingLife · 14/02/2025 09:06

wrt to the upside down or "bizarro world" (upthread) we're inhabiting viz the ET, Sarah Haider on the tension between effective activism and intellectual honesty (I found it thought-provoking):

There is a fundamental disconnect between the functions of two different classes of “discourse participants” — those who use language to think and discover truth and those who use it as a means to power.

The activist game, to sum in one sentence, is about results. The goal of a “good” activist is to achieve the ends as quickly as possible — as ethically as this might allow. Her morality is rooted in the goodness of the ends she works towards, indisputably noble means to attain them are not required.

The thinker game is about truth. The goal is to uncover reality as it is - to achieve a true map of the real world (and hopefully, to be the first to do it). Reflecting reality accurately requires honesty — with oneself and with others — and a strict adherence to principled conduct. Although all fields have some degree of competition, knowledge-building is inherently not a zero-sum game. Truth builds upon itself.

The activist, meanwhile, lives in a world of scarcity — limited time, limited funds, limited public attention. To her, not winning is the same as losing: every minute in which her goals are not achieved is a minute in which a harm has been achieved. There is a cost to delay.
Meanwhile, from the thinker’s perspective, the only activism that doesn't look like dishonorable demagoguery is, in practice, ineffective activism.

newsletter.sarahhaider.com/p/on-effective-activism-and-intellectual?

You post some fascinating articles @RethinkingLife
I read the Arendt one in full last night and it is amazing. So relevant to what we're seeing in the world today.

hollysmumma · 14/02/2025 09:38

writing123 · 13/02/2025 17:57

I keep seeing references on X to Sandie having turned down a settlement offer. In my own experience of a long-running civil case (but not in Scotland nor an employment tribunal) a settlement offer was confidential and without prejudice, so that news couldn’t have got out. Is this not the case for this jurisdiction, or can we conclude this is likely just a rumour?

Also regarding possible settlement: that wouldn’t help Sandie with the patient safety accusations, surely, which are now in the public domain?

And because they’re sharing representation, wouldn’t Upton need to agree with NHS Fife about any settlement before it was offered (even if the latter were funding it)? Upton doesn't seem to have a conciliatory bone in his body.

I’ve been following along on X and many threads so apologies if I’ve missed these already being asked and answered.

[edited to correct an autocorrect]

Edited

I heard the same, but apparently they can't make an offer unless he agrees.
He's unlikely to do so because then he gets referred to the GMC and could be struck off.
Bet whoever in NHS Fife decided to join cases with him are wishing they hadn't!

Skyellaskerry · 14/02/2025 09:39

GreySkirt · 14/02/2025 09:12

I’m so annoyed we can’t listen/view live - I was able to do some mundane work tasks at the same time, but I’ve been very unproductive these last few days!

Wonder if one of the unforeseen costs of this has been a big dip in GDP specifically this week (obviously aside from the longer term efforts & effects of battling this cult).

Me too, I’ve ended up starting early and finishing very late as I feel guilty at my phone focus during court hours! Actually the one day I had to ignore the case was a bit of a blessing else I’d be working all weekend!

RoyalCorgi · 14/02/2025 09:41

hollysmumma · 14/02/2025 09:38

I heard the same, but apparently they can't make an offer unless he agrees.
He's unlikely to do so because then he gets referred to the GMC and could be struck off.
Bet whoever in NHS Fife decided to join cases with him are wishing they hadn't!

Agree. But it's quite remarkable that they decided to contest the case at all. They have come to tribunal unprepared - not even able to explain when key events happened or what policies and procedures they looked at before making a decision to suspend Sandie. This is all very basic stuff indeed.

Boiledbeetle · 14/02/2025 09:43

❤£33,000❤

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17
RethinkingLife · 14/02/2025 09:45

murasaki · 13/02/2025 23:26

Really there needs to be a widespread campaign by men for men about expanding the bandwidth of being male. So people could be happy wearing what they want, feel OK in male spaces, and not decide they want to invade ours. This isn't a problem created by women, and yet we seem to be the only ones having to deal with the consequences.

Yes!

Don't recruit female allies to act as your Praetorian Guard to go into women's spaces. Recruit male allies to accompany you into male spaces.

Expand that bandwidth of how to be a man. Maybe Alex Drummond could assist them.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/this-transgender-woman-has-a-full-beard-and-she-couldnt-be-h

Leave women to expand the bandwidth of what it means to be a woman.

This Trans Woman Kept Her Beard And Couldn't Be Happier

"I'm widening the bandwidth of how to be a woman." Alex Drummond talks to BuzzFeed News about why she kept her beard after transitioning – and how others react.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/this-transgender-woman-has-a-full-beard-and-she-couldnt-be-h

Greyskybluesky · 14/02/2025 09:47

Scout2016 · 14/02/2025 04:37

I have a legal query - given they already have to reconvene and delay is happening, if any women working at the hospital decided to come forward and say they weren't happy either, could they be incorporated somehow? Even just a written statement saying "yes I waited outside too because..."?

I don't know the answer but your question reminded me of Sandie's response when she was in the box:

JR: You were the only one who complained
Sandie: No, I was the only one who complained to management

IDasIX · 14/02/2025 09:48

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 14/02/2025 08:34

I feel like they're misconstruing the Trump comments. Although I don't know SP at all and she's entitled to her own beliefs, so maybe it's me misconstruing it.

I think many of us are relieved that under Trump it's been ordered to stop the medical transitions of minors. I suppose if I said this on a whim someone might also think I support Trump who is odious and has also done a lot of damage to women's reproductive rights and healthcare.

And I think it's a bit of a clutch to assume that if someone stays in a Trump hotel it's purely because they support Donald Trump.

The thing is I can see a scenario where she could have expressed general support/admiration for Trump. If that was the case, I’d very likely not get on with her, wouldn’t want to be stuck next to her at the Xmas night out.

But I can disagree vehemently with her politics and still think it’s an absolute disgrace that she’s been treated like this for challenging men in the women’s changing room.

Trump is a rapist who will irreparably erode women’s bodily autonomy. I’d probably tell Sandie if she piped up that I agreed with her on the changing rooms issue but that Trump is no friend to women.

JasmineAllen · 14/02/2025 09:48

hollysmumma · 14/02/2025 08:59

As a retired nurse she just disgusts me, even more than him actually.

I agree. I'm an ex staff nurse and her attitude and mindless answers infuriated me.
She has done nurses and nursing a huge dis service because she is either lying under oath or she thinks your DNA can alter by changing your appearance. And that's without even considering her shocking lack of knowledge around blood result differences between the sexes.

IMO Esther is an embarrassment and a disgrace both as a woman and as a nurse.

Hild0 · 14/02/2025 09:50

RoyalCorgi · 14/02/2025 09:41

Agree. But it's quite remarkable that they decided to contest the case at all. They have come to tribunal unprepared - not even able to explain when key events happened or what policies and procedures they looked at before making a decision to suspend Sandie. This is all very basic stuff indeed.

I wonder if any of the key players are active in Unison. If so, it could have engendered complacency about how the tribunal would go, given how the Women's Conference has just voted that TWAW and heresy will not be tolerated?

WellIwasaGiraffeonce · 14/02/2025 09:51

JasmineAllen · 14/02/2025 09:48

I agree. I'm an ex staff nurse and her attitude and mindless answers infuriated me.
She has done nurses and nursing a huge dis service because she is either lying under oath or she thinks your DNA can alter by changing your appearance. And that's without even considering her shocking lack of knowledge around blood result differences between the sexes.

IMO Esther is an embarrassment and a disgrace both as a woman and as a nurse.

I am not disagreeing with you, but she as a woman is trying to keep a job and pay the bills and should not have been put in this position by the policies of her employer. It all goes up the chain now and it is where focus should be. She was a mouthpiece for her employer only.

thenosiesttermagant · 14/02/2025 09:52

Really there needs to be a widespread campaign by men for men about expanding the bandwidth of being male. So people could be happy wearing what they want, feel OK in male spaces, and not decide they want to invade ours. This isn't a problem created by women, and yet we seem to be the only ones having to deal with the consequences.

Unfortunately that isn't what TRAs want. There is no validation or thrill in men accepting you in your 'women's' (sexist) clothing. They don't want access to women's spaces, they want access to unconsenting women. Upton is a good example of this and the tacit knowledge that this is true is why they bent over backwards to harm Peggie and give Upton all he wanted. He could have been given an alternative changing room, but wasn't (witnesses have said SP could have changed elsewhere - why not Upton?). Because it's not about the changing room, it's about the women. At best for validation, and we all know what the worst is.

If it was anything to do with men not accepting GNC men then third spaces would be everywhere and used by now. But it's not. As evidenced by the fact that these men won't use third spaces even where they exist (as they apparently do at the Vic because SP was told she could change elsewhere though presumably any space she changed in would also be open to Upton - a man determined to bully her).

I also don't think there's any evidence at all that transwomen are unsafe in the mens - many transsexuals use the mens without incident. It's all the most paper thin of excuses for the real goal - which is dominance over and access to unconsenting women.

nauticant · 14/02/2025 09:52

The point I was making is that some people assume that Sandie Peggie being a Trump supporter is made up based on the fact that she stayed in a Trump-branded hotel. This isn't the case. She is said to be a Trump supporter because she said she's a Trump supporter. The hotel thing gets mentioned by the Upton/NHS side to repeat the message that she's a wrongthinker.

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