NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

It doesn't matter whether a man's had any surgery or not. Whether he has bits and bobs to expose or not is immaterial. He's still a man and shouldn't be in a woman's changing room.

The whole Trump hotel thing.... maybe Sandie plays golf. It's possible she went there for the golf course, rather than due to devotion to the loon as is being suggested.

Even if she does have bigoted views, she still deserves justice.

IANAL but a retired Civil Servant.

I have always said it is easier to revise the legislation than repeal it.
Another option might be to incorporate it into another Act such as the EA.

I think people like Keira Bell are key. Keira has a GRC stating she is legally male. Keira has detransitioned and there is apparently no legal process for her to change her legal sex back to female. That is a huge error in the legislation. Once you open the door to revision you can then include other revisions that protect those already with a GRC whilst also protecting natal sex.

This exactly - it was used against SP that she hadn't lodged a formal complaint. With this tribunal in the news it is the perfect time to ask. Because it is completely impersonal -

Would this wash?

I've been watching the Sandie Peggie versus NHS Fife Tribunal with interest. I am concerned that I would be accused of being transphobic or bigoted if I needed to request female only care or spaces at some point in the future.

I am concerned that gender diversity issues might impact on my needs for privacy, dignity and safety to be met.

Therefore please accept this as formal notice of a "Protected Disclosure" related to my female sex under the EA 2010 and I will expect all the legal protections that this affords going forwards.

Have a lovely day

You'd have to be quite brave to send that though!

especially in this context - no one wanted to look at those pants in the female CR! 😂

I am not overly familiar with X or formerly Twitter. I just clicked on a button and the Grok (?) assessment was delivered, I think it is a bit wanting

• The X post is part of a thread covering the ongoing employment tribunal case of Sandie Peggie vs Fife Health Board and Dr. B Upton, where Peggie claims issues related to sexual harassment, harassment due to protected beliefs, indirect discrimination, and victimization over the use of changing rooms.
• The case involves significant debate over gender identity in the workplace, particularly in healthcare settings, where Peggie objected to sharing changing facilities with Dr. Upton, who is transgender.
• The tribunal's proceedings and decisions could influence workplace policies regarding transgender rights and gender-specific facilities in the NHS, highlighting broader societal discussions on transgender inclusion and privacy rights.

I get the impression that ED did initially try to do something about Upton in the women's, but as soon as she asked and was told 'protected belief' she immediately stopped. It's like hitting a brick wall. You cannot challenge a protected belief therefore lying about your sex means you have to be believed over someone telling the truth, and the reason you have to be believed is because you're lying.

I saw something yesterday where Upton was described as a man pretending to be a woman called Beth.

Nail hit on head.

"due to having to actually work to do any housework"
So housework isn't "actual" work?

Discount at the Trump Hotel is part of the NHS staff benefits package. Available to anyone working for the NHS in the UK.

www.nhsstaffbenefits.co.uk/deal/trump-turnberry-stays-nhs-discount

It looks unutterably creepy. More so than when I read it the first time.

What an idiot

lol! Agree, but it's in writing though.

https://nitter.poast.org/quineofthenorth/status/1889968678424457615#m

for those not on Twix

No I was too busy at work to keep up with the threads yesterday and was on a late shift so I am catching up this morning on reading rather than doing housework.

Yes, a really good outcome of all this would be the exact wording you need to say to a man who wants to overstep the mark in this way.

The old my hands are tied, this is our legally advised policy, it's not personal, etc.

The mental image of those big pants is just horrible 😂

Every time he says "I'm a woman", I think of the "lady" in Little Britain. It's awful but it's in my head now and it won't get out!

That's hilarious. I so want it highlighted

I disagree I think the £116k paid to Eleanor Frances along with the public statement will have seen the Civil Service do a lot of reflecting.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5250298-eleanor-frances-settles-civil-service-tribunal-case-ps116k

It's not just you.

Legally, I think the question would be whether he has a Gender Recognition Certificate. It's not entirely clear what this means until after the High Court Case on sex definitions in law, but the hospital would have grounds for claiming that they were acting within the law.

As it stands, it seems that he can't have had a GRC at the time of the incident, because he hadn't been 'living as' a woman for 2 years.

Whatever guidance NHS Fife were following, it doesn't appear to be UK law. However that isn't surprising given that so many organisations, particularly unions (who exist to support people like SP) are providing guidance that isn't UK law.

I'm interested to know how/if this will come up in the case - Are NHS Fife negligent?

As a retired nurse she just disgusts me, even more than him actually.

Well this hotel is now getting some amazing advertising. I didn't even know it existed until yesterday.

Bit slow to the party but finally got around to watching Beyonce and the Levi's ad. More outer than under wear imo. Wearing shorts and T shirt - which is a lot more covering than her stage outfits. So NC's point that one of the most beautiful and confident women in the world wouldn't strip in a public place was good - but was the ad well known enough for it to be useful?

%27s%C2%AE

Women have done this. Personally I've been doing it for years, it both before Forstater (utterly terrifying) and since (merely scary). You're assuming that the employers don't know women care, or don't understand what the issues and possible dangers of this policy are, or even don't know the policy isn't in line with the Equality Act.

They know. They've just decided being 'kind' (to men with special feelings) is more important than women's needs or wishes. This is what institutional capture is.

I don't want to derail the thread further, there is another thread on this where I posted about raising this in my NHS Trust

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273561-thread-for-discussing-how-women-can-ask-nhs-for-female-hcps?page=2

Exactly why that was such a good thing for Esther to say. In one small side remark she completely punctured JR's assertions. Having said that, SP could still be a raving Trump supporter who travelled to Mar a Lago to kiss the ring. But that is totally irrelevant to her reasonable expectation to a female only CR!

You have NO idea how accurate you are!!!