Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 14

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9

Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10

Thread 11 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555145-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-11

Thread 12 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555687-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-12

Thread 13 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556235-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-13

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Katherine McGahy - Bar Council Ethics Committee's VC (24 May)
Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
Colin Cook - clerk at GCC (24 May
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, to concluded on 25th May)
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing
Kathryn Cronin - barrister at GCC

To come:

Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge.
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers

AH!

Just joined today and blood pressure has already shot up listening to a few minutes of MB!

I'm about 10 pages behind, but I think MB is very wrong on FDJ.

That was the FPFW judicial review about prisons. IIRC, the judgement didn't dismiss at all the idea that in the prison population, people who identify as trans women are disproportionately likely to have committed sexual offences. The evidence was there in black and white. The reason they didn't judge it illegal for trans women to be housed in women's prisons was because they accepted the MoJ's position that they had appropriate risk assessment procedures to ensure only trans women who could be safely housed in the female prison estate would be transferred. (I.E. they recognised and mitigated the risk, not that the risk didn't exist).

<end pedantry> <begin rant>

MB is an actual judge. Her whole job is to deal in the details of this stuff. How can she be throwing around this totally inaccurate information? It's the level of inaccuracy I'd expect to see from a Saturday newspaper columnist, not a QC.

'I've been joined by the cleaner whose jaw is on the floor!'

I'm now picturing women gathering round their laptops open-mouthed.

Me too! Her bullshit is off the radar, I can't believe she is a judge - she should be ashamed of herself!

It's going to be a "yes" - eventually.....

If you google the quote "trans persons are rapists" there is ONE hit from someone denying that they think this.

It's complete bullshit that anyone ever has said that they believe this. It's just not a thing that people say.

MB's interpretation on anything GC automatically goes to bad faith at every turn. Beliefs themselves aren't transphobic but they manifest as transphobic in her view because she's making up what has been said.

I had no idea she was Scottish. I'm
wondering if she's associated/linked with Helena Kennedy QC?

Maybe because her every answer is proving her prejudice. He doesn't have to prove that she's wrong, just that she was discriminatory against Allison Bailey, who has every right to hold her opinions.

"transpeople are rapists"

seems to have actually been ‘A man who says he’s a lesbian is a rapist’
The flyer states: ‘The trans movement is… coercing lesbians to have sex with men. We firmly condemn this vicious form of anti-lesbianism disguised as progress.’
Lesbian activist: ‘Only women can be lesbians’
Speaking to Gay Star News, Jan Williams from Object said: ‘Transgenderism is conversion therapy. Conversion therapy is wrong.’

www.gaystarnews.com/article/lesbian-activists-protest-against-trans-women-pride-london/

DH passes through the room throughout the day, and is continally gobsmacked by the snippets he hears

@tabbycatstripy to give you the whole visual, she came through with the mop bucket to go upstairs, stopped to tell me she wasn't going to stick the music on today and got as far as the back of my chair. and then the eyes widened, the jaw dropped and she started shaking her head.

I've noticed that she says something blatantly untrue - eg. 'I might have sent that tweet, but I don't remember....' and then becomes extra conciliatory and ingratiating, as if she's feeling guilty for telling a lie.

BC asking about first attempt to set up the TRWG at GCC. This is back in 2016. BC asks about dual purpose - litigation and campaigning/lobbying. Trying to create a specialism in trans rights work as core aim.

MB says something vague about building legal capacity and engaging with cases in the trans community.

Given that she is a judge, I wonder would Ben be allowed to ask that if a transgender male rapist appeared in her court, would she insist his victim call her rapist her.

Notorious "office wanker" , Jess Bradley, mentioned in that email.

(Jess filmed herself masturbating her penis at her desk)

BC asking about building relationships with community as part of business development.

MB says sort of. Tends to be done by individual barristers. Varying levels of activity in Chambers.

She seems allergic to just answering 'yes'...it reminds me of a 5 year old being asked about taking the sweets - you get a long pause, followed by lots of waffle and deflection that means nothing...

Just joined today and blood pressure has already shot up listening to a few minutes of MB!
Me too! Her bullshit is off the radar, I can't believe she is a judge - she should be ashamed of herself!

Same here. This has really been an insight into legal Britain - and it is shocking and terrifying and depressing and galvanising in equal measure.

This needs to be shown in the film/ Netflix series. While MB talks cuts to women watching open mouthed, all work stopped....

that I think is still in the current bench book. She would and she would feel righteous and justified in doing so

MB calls the TRWG aspirational, implies there was a lot they didn't do.

How can she possibly argue, after this testimony, that AB was AOK to mention her stance on GC feminism at work?

How can they possibly argue that this wasn't a hostile place to work? MB is one of the most hostile and vehement people I've ever heard speak (at length...)

What MB is objecting to and what other TRAs object to, is that the emphasis on the risk posed by these male people to women, as males, demonises them and paints them as a group more likely to be sex offenders. This wouldn't be the case if it was accepted that women's rights to single sex spaces were legitimate, because it wouldn't be an issue. This is an issue created by TRAs.

@BenCooperisaGod Some judges already do I think - this has only recently been changed in Judges Bench book