Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 5

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:
AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

[drwitch]

marking place

[MsMarvellous]

Question on the last thread re bundles. No, not normally a shambles. A lot of care is taken, usually, to ensure bundles are consistent and of a good standard. I'd have been extremely embarrassed to have a barrister come back from court to say the bundle we produced had been criticised by the judge. Clerks and admin teams working at QC level should be experienced in doing this sort of thing.

[Artichokeleaves]

And criticised by the judge more than once during the proceedings.

[DomesticatedZombie]

thanks again, Ickky, you're doing great work!

[SpindleInTheWind]

Just checking in.

[nauticant]

Reposting from thread 4:

AH is trying to uncover traces of transphobia in AB's views and he's finding a lot of nuance and tolerance. He's failing here because he doesn't get the nuances that Stonewall trans =/= transsexual.

[Lio]

Thank you for the new thread. I'm going to have to miss the final section of the hearing today and all of tomorrow, so very grateful to everyone who's summarising and commenting here.

[womaniswomaniswoman]

Checking in again :)

Thanks to all of you keeping this thread going. I'd love to watch live but can't and this is a huge help.

[nauticant]

I think that enormous despairing sigh when the streaming resumed was EJ Goodman.

[ickky]

EJ does have the patience of a saint. I would have shouted FFS get on with it, many, many times by now.

[ickky]

Loved AB statement - The Government should have shut it down, referring to Stonewall.

Yes they absolutely should.

[ickky]

Especially in our era of disinformation and fake news. Advising Companies misquoting the actual law should not be allowed.

[nauticant]

This hectoring with a crowing tone isn't really helping AH here. He's overtired.

[ickky]

@nauticant

This hectoring with a crowing tone isn't really helping AH here. He's overtired.

Yep, he needs a lovely nap.

[ickky]

or possibly hangry.

[ickky]

The Stazi like behaviour of David Renton is awful and very sneaky.

[nauticant]

To be fair, keeping mentally focused to such a degree would leave just about anyone knackered by half 4. In my experience it is harder than being a witness.

[IDidntKnowItWasAParty]

I stepped away from the laptop for a short time and missed a good bit it sounds like! What was the toilet answer?

[ickky]

@nauticant

To be fair, keeping mentally focused to such a degree would leave just about anyone knackered by half 4. In my experience it is harder than being a witness.

Completely agree, I don't know how they do it.

[nauticant]

Effectively IDidntKnowItWasAParty in AB's view things have changed. She was pretty relaxed in the past but now with the significant broadening of Stonewall's trans umbrella, with males simply asserting a feminine gender identity and becoming "women", and Stonewall pushing for there to be no restrictions as to where they're free to go, there are situations in which she would object to a transwoman in a women's single sex space such as a women's toilet.

[ickky]

AH asked AB to take a breathe, she responded that she didn't need a breathe and to not patronise her.

EJ interjected and asked AH how much he had left and it was decided to end the hearing and reconvene tomorrow at 10am. Should only be another hour with AH.

[IDidntKnowItWasAParty]

Ah thank you @nauticant !

[IDidntKnowItWasAParty]

I agree - the shift from transsexual & medical diagnosis, to transgender & self-id, has changed everything.

[tabbycatstripy]

I’m the same: sharing a communal bathroom with a transwoman who has obviously transitioned including all presentational aspects is something I am tolerant about. But “we just want to pee” is then used as a wedge to imply that, because there are few incidents of violent or aggressive behaviour, it means women should be just as tolerant of transwomen providing them with intimate care, or sitting next to them in a peer counselling session as they talk about sexual trauma.

The bottom line is that males can’t be women. In certain (maybe even most) circumstances I am happy to share spaces with most transitioning males. But that isn’t what is being asked for.

[Wimbunds]

Placemarking. Thank you for the threads xx