Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 14

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9

Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10

Thread 11 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555145-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-11

Thread 12 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555687-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-12

Thread 13 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556235-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-13

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Katherine McGahy - Bar Council Ethics Committee's VC (24 May)
Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
Colin Cook - clerk at GCC (24 May
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, to concluded on 25th May)
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing
Kathryn Cronin - barrister at GCC

To come:

Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge.
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers

Fwiw there is no relevant google hit for the literal phrase "trans persons are rapists" which is what she carefully said, claiming it was a quote from the media. I think she misremembers.

Is "not on Twitter" on the bingo card?

BC is correct that GSN reported that it was about an individual

www.gaystarnews.com/article/lesbian-activists-protest-against-trans-women-pride-london/

Absolutely! Talking out of her back hole as believe they say.

BC asks about MB's involvement in a tweet - not sure which tweet?

BC draws her to another part of her quote on TELI Twitter, about the group as a whole being allowed to lead Pride. She said this was transphobic.

MB says it's sad reality that GC feminists move into transphobic rhetoric and she was criticising that. Finds it staggering.

Or made it up to suit her anti GC stance...

The banner read: ‘Transactivism erases lesbians’.
They then blocked the parade route for about 10 minutes. One of the activists shouted out: ‘A man who says he’s a lesbian is a rapist’

Why isn't he challenging her bullshit answers more?

She absolutely proven her own bigotry there

Oh my God she's gone there - the Stonewall riots and the changing of history.

She's from a working class background, as I am, and she has that experience of poverty and class

I'm going to chip in to say there are council estates and council estates (and I note she ceased living in a council estate after the age of 11 which may well also indicate something about where she had her secondary education). There's the sort of estate where Bob Crow used to live.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/07/bob-crow-interview-nothing-to-defend

And, to be blunt, the estate where I was brought up where there were several brothels within 20m either side of us and you had visiting men trying to snatch children who were returning home from school into a garage for sex. You never left your house empty because it would be burgled; we had a very substantial population of families where the man was in and out of prison. There were many, many neglected children and a substantial number of my classmates started disappearing into Approved School as soon as they were eligible for it. Etc. etc.

I'm sure a number of us are familiar with that sort of council estate/housing scheme: the sort that were ruled by a couple of families and that was more predator and prey than a supportive community. Where the stigma of the area was a blot on every application you ever made to try and get a Saturday job.

I admire much of Michelle Brewer's biography. To be fair, I admire the professional persona of many of GCC's witnesses: I think it's one of the reasons that I've seen a mass of complex emotions on display alongside some frankly rebarbative attitudes that seem to interfere with their ability to see AB or to have discussions with her.

BC asks MB about GCC retweeting that TELI post. Did MB encourage this?

MB doesn't remember.

*proved

My interpretation is that she was coming from the unspoken assumption that the only trans people that matter are TW, and that all marriages are heterosexual. Therefore all spouses who object are women, and objecting to continuing the marriage to the tw partner is due to their homophobia / transphobia and is a prejudicial and unreasonable objection. The fact that their spouse telling them they are now lesbians and it's homophobic to object seems to characterise their sexual orientation as irrelevant is staggeringly homophobic seems to elude her.

I don’t have twitter

BINGO

"I don't recall" - bingo

Oh no! Now she has no memory

No memory - don't have Twitter . Double bingo.

I guess you could read it either way, actually.

The key point is "male pattern offending". I think because if TWAW then "male" doesn't apply in self-ID world. But you can't change sex etc, so "male" does apply. It goes to the heart of sex vs gender (I think?)

Bingo! She doesn’t 'have' Twitter!

FULL HOUSE!

No sign of that banner or mention of that slogan here....

www.gaystarnews.com/article/lesbian-activists-protest-against-trans-women-pride-london/

this is terrible. no not MB, my cleaning isn't getting done, I've been joined by the cleaner whose jaw is on the floor!

(It's a great achievement for a working class woman to become a judge. I don't take anything away from her. It's just a shame she's an ideologue on this one issue.)

MB says protesters said 'all transpersons are rapists' as reported in Gay Star News.

Here is the article, and the quote: "One of the activists shouted out: ‘A man who says he’s a lesbian is a rapist’"
So that's different than MB presented it to be.
www.gaystarnews.com/article/lesbian-activists-protest-against-trans-women-pride-london/