Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 14

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9

Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10

Thread 11 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555145-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-11

Thread 12 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555687-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-12

Thread 13 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556235-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-13

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Katherine McGahy - Bar Council Ethics Committee's VC (24 May)
Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
Colin Cook - clerk at GCC (24 May
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, to concluded on 25th May)
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing
Kathryn Cronin - barrister at GCC

To come:

Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge.
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers

BC looks at TELI purpose. Quotes it to show it is campaigning (lobbying).

MB accuses Sex Matters of confirmation bias.

Talk about pot kettle black!!!

Thank you @ickky and when AH says it failed?

I feel that I'm being radicalised here. To finally get brave and stand up for KPSS.

Because that misinformation helps her paint us as transphobic

Yes. A very worrying quality for someone in her position.

MB says lobbying is working with third sector orgs and supporting them and their work. TELI only did this in a joint response to GRA consultation.

BC was TELI a lobbying group?

MB waffle, waffle, waffle, yes

BC asks about TELI launch conference in 2016. GCC sponsored this, amongst others.

Also fuming that the stats are doubtless all unreliable due to lobbying from MB’s side of the argument. Sex Matters etc are all pro recording sex as well as gender is because they think that sex, erm, matters

I'm reading too fast, I keep getting to the end of the thread. Thank you everybody. I'm glad I'm not watching/listening, I'd fear for my windows.

I was envying everyone's support animals, then realised I've got a nest of support bumblebees. I'm going to buy them some 'thanks' lavender at the weekend.

I think they say that there is a higher rate of convicted sex offenders amongst TW than amongst other males. This could be because male predators are identifying as TW to get a more lenient sentence. Or it could be because TW are more likely to be sex offenders. Or it could be because of the conflation and non collection of important data meaning that the stats are useless. It's really hard to tell because nothing is being recorded as it should be.

BC did you persuade GCC to donate to TELI

MB waffle, waffle, waffle, yes

Another l-o-n-g answer to agree that GC(C) funded TELI.

Hope this judge recuses herself from child / sex/ domestic abuse cases involving transwomen. It must be terrifying for victims with judges like this.
childrenoftransitioners.org/2021/12/28/the-judges-bench-book/

BC asking about MB as speaker at the launch. Says MB made the argument that the government had to adopt self-id. Promoting self-id?

MB says she wasn't promoting it, she was giving a legal analysis.

Ruthless careerist

i hope there is someone somewhere in a legal field now taking a good look at the judgements of all cases that have been brought before her because her thoughts processes are seriously out of kilter with the law.

Thought the GRA provisions were likely to be unlawful.

Yes ensure that the data can't be collected and then claim that the stats are unreliable when women use them to say that self ID is a risk to women.

So yes, you argued for self-id - did it really need five paragraphs to get there, MB?

I'm back, how's she doing?

She thinks the laws that apply to the trans community are inherently transphobic?

A bit late now but I wish BC would ask MB straight out if she believes that any GC group claims that "most TW are sex offenders" or if she is wrong to claim that.

I hate the way she repeats a key word of the question back to BC as a question. It's the tone of voice as she does it...

"Is it "controversial"...?"
"Was I "promoting" TELI?
Is it "prejudiced"?

The sense of entitlement dripping off MB about how the gift of self-ID was snatched away from them, and how terribly unfair this, when it had been promised and was their right, is palpable.