Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 14

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9

Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10

Thread 11 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555145-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-11

Thread 12 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555687-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-12

Thread 13 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556235-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-13

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Katherine McGahy - Bar Council Ethics Committee's VC (24 May)
Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
Colin Cook - clerk at GCC (24 May
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, to concluded on 25th May)
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing
Kathryn Cronin - barrister at GCC

To come:

Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge.
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers

I'd love for MB to be asked the explain the stats on trans demographic in the UK (overwhelmingly white heterosexual male upper middle class)

Martin Reuby is writing away very industriously.

Back in the room, heavy sigh from MB

I want to know what women can do if she ends up being a judge in a court case against them. She absolutely is biased and I wouldn't trust her to be fair to any woman.

What about women of colour refugees? I bet they outnumber the trans refugees by quite a lot. Doing anything for them? Some of them presumably would like single sex toilets?

I read once about how women were wearing sanpro and nappies in a refugee centre because they wouldn't use the toilets because so many of them had been raped in there.

during the break I went and informed my wonderful cleaner she is now a middle class white lady and she should check her privilege!

Her face....she looked at me like I was not of a right mind!

MB brings in another crate of water

Ooh - what was the comment in the chat? I assume now deleted?

If she is not even admitting how long she was a trustee for GI, does it bode well for answers to questions MB may wish to remain unclear?

Go BC - nails MB with her own case that she brought up.

Your 'middle class' may well be wrong:

She's from a working class background, as I am, and she has that experience of poverty and class where other people she mixes with probably don't, but she went to university, got a legal pupillage, became a successful barrister and then a judge. In no way is she living a working class life now and in a good position to tell less privileged women (in her own conceptualisation, not mine) to "check their privilege".

BC now quoting from another case that does suggest that there is some (limited) evidence that transwomen are more likely to be sex offenders.

BC is reading out the study MB quoted and it says that the % of tw prisoners of sexual offences is susbtantially greater than the % of male people. But not 5-6 times more likely. But numbers are incredibly small but also data collection is problematic.

TW in W prison carries a statistical risk of SO in prison compared to a non-trans woman.

Mentions masculine physique and male genitalia.

Brill i ant BC, hoist with her own petard

Ooh Cooper quoting verbatim from the judgment on FDJ that Brewer was claiming said one thing earlier, which appears to contradict her portrayal of it earlier.

A passer by giving legal advice to the judge :D

I think EJ has just drawn the attention of every observer to what has been posted in chat, and thus guaranteed even more people are aware of the stats.

I hadn't been paying attention to chat, so I just went and read it. I know Louise Somerville got told off, but I hope she feels good about it. It was worth it. Thanks Louise!

twitter.com/tribunaltweets/status/1529736903586729985

Did anyone understand what she was saying about transwidows? It seems a bit lost in the word salad.

The excerpt from the case is quite long but it covers the anxiety female prisoners feel when forced to share accommodation with male sex offenders.

BC suggests that this case did not actually give short shrift to the conclusion at all.

MB disputes this.

Actually clapping here, standing ovation for BC

"... That was not an accurate representation..." - I think that's a fair comment from BC, but she's having none of it.

Yes the data collection is based on self-id and therefore UNRELIABLE and problematic - in MB's own words.

DO YOU NOT SEEEEEEEEE MB?!

Did she just say self ID is unreliable!!?!?!?!!

What is it Ben is reading from? Sounds very interesting and raises very good points about the vulnerability of wormn prisoners.

MB is now completely ignoring the very rational concerns around male violence and focusing on the statistics quibbling..

self identification is an unreliable source. really MB?

(My view is again that it is perfectly legitimate to dispute sources and evidence, but not illegitimate to present them. AB did nothing 'transphobic' by presenting those statistics whether right or wrong.)