Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 14

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9

Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10

Thread 11 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555145-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-11

Thread 12 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555687-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-12

Thread 13 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556235-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-13

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Katherine McGahy - Bar Council Ethics Committee's VC (24 May)
Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
Colin Cook - clerk at GCC (24 May
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, to concluded on 25th May)
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing
Kathryn Cronin - barrister at GCC

To come:

Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge.
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers

I disagree with her completely and dont think she's do amazingly, but she (MB) could be doing much much worse IMO. Unfortunately.

Where is the evidence of extreme violence against transwomen in the UK?

Here we go huge levels of violence yada yada yada

Oh FFS - she IS the Kool Aid

AH - knock knock
BC - whose the……
AH - Interupting barrister

"I can't divorce myself from being a lawyer" - I think she is claiming that she is reasonable to have a prejudice against anyone holding these views BECAUSE THEY ARE SO WRONG. 🙄

BC suggests MB exhibits prejudice against people who make the argument. MB says if someone is going to make those sorts of assertions against a minority class, then the evidence needs to be reliable. MB says that proposition was given short shrift in court. MB's position is that trans people suffer extreme levels of hate and violence, and propagating the narrative that they are violent is harmful. MB thinks Sex Matters evidence is unreliable.

making accusations against a minority population
who suffer SIGNIFICANT levels of violence, EXTREME levels of hate crime
is harmful

Her mind is so closed to any other perspective.

MB - if you're going to make those kind of assertions against a minority group who suffer significant levels of violence,.you need to have very strong evidence.

MB You are propagating a narrative that is harmful to a minority group. The UN says so.

(She is so so passionate)

I think she is trying to say the sexual predator transwomen arent actually trans women but CIS men in disguise so they don't count?? am i correct there?

She needed to calm down there a bit didn't she.

I think Sex Matters also looked in-depth at hate crime stats in the recent-ish past and separated out crime from incidents, and found the data put forward to be wanting.

She keeps trying to confuse suggesting that saying TW are no safer than the cohort of Men as whole is the same as saying all TW are violent predators.

Ben neatly takes her to her position on self id...

BC moves on to gender identity/reassignment as the protected characteristic.

MB says gender identity is caught up in 'other attributes of sex' and she thinks people who self-id are protected because of their intention to transition. She thinks a significant cohort of people without a GRC are captured under the protection.

BC not debating that but says it is a controversial view.

MB disputes this.

Despite all the waffle, BC has established that anyone who disagrees with her is see as transphobic

😂

MB points out there is no requirement for medical transition or a GRC to be protected.

MB "Is it controversial to hold my view?"

Isn't she conflating 2 things here? She's referring to a a judgment of the administrative court, which previously she said was about the stats on transwomen in prison being overwhelmingly sex offenders, and now she's using the same judgment to reject the idea that they show male patterns of offending. They are 2 separate ideas - did the judgment do both, or just the first?

MB: You're right, we shouldn't debate this [waffles on and on and on}.

MB to BC: You're right, we shouldn't debate this

Too right MB, that's why No Debate has been the stance for so long!

She genuinely thinks that a man saying 'I'm a woman' means he gets every protection and can be considered a female in every way.

ive been wondering who Michelle Brewers audience is.
Stonewall
GCCE
Judges
The tribunal
The public
Trans Activists
I’m thinking she’s talking to Stonewall

What I'm mostly hearing is "Because minority..." top trumps.