Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 14

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9

Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10

Thread 11 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555145-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-11

Thread 12 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555687-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-12

Thread 13 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556235-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-13

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Katherine McGahy - Bar Council Ethics Committee's VC (24 May)
Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
Colin Cook - clerk at GCC (24 May
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, to concluded on 25th May)
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing
Kathryn Cronin - barrister at GCC

To come:

Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge.
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers

MB's argument is that any position she might hold is, by definition, not controversial, while all positions held by her opponents are, by definition, controversial.

I think she wants Nancy Kelley's job

Aren't the stats unreliable because the MoJ record prisoners by gender not sex? Did they not have to admit they didn't know how many TW were in the female estate, because they hadn't recorded that information. BUT the number of females convicted of sex offences has mysteriously increased...

So, it's not surprising it's difficult to find stats to back up the GC argument.

And that it's not controversial to have no problem with that @AlisonDonut - what an incredibly frightening woman

Oops GCC

MB's brain is completely rotted by the gender kool-aid. Women do not matter to her whatsoever - certainly not vulnerable women with no choices. She is an utter disgrace.

MB thinks it isn't controversial to advocate for self-id as there is no other requirement for medical transition even to obtain a GRC or to be covered by 'gender reassignment' protected characteristic.

God MB is insufferable. Her misogyny is off the scale.

She is, I just had to go and rant to DP in the kitchen.

The bizarre hole in the logic appears to be what would a transitioning TW be transitions from and to?

I thought current high dogma was once GI is declared that person is now and always has been...

Exactly.

BC back to bundle. Discusses the justification for the need for dignity and privacy for women in terms of what MB said about what was transphobic (in the transcript on the GRA training at GCC).

MB says she thinks she knows what she was saying.

BC quotes MB as saying it is embedded transphobia to defend single sex spaces.

She also doesn't understand (or is pretending not to) the feminist arguments against self ID.

BC self ID allows male bodied people into single sex spaces. Do you understand?

MB Not really

BC you called that statement transphobic

MB waffle, waffle, yes

To be fair, she'd be bloody great at it.

Her whole position hinges on 'gender identity is innate and no one would ever pretend to be something they are not', doesn't it?

Because 'transwomen are [whatever] and this is different from men' presupposes that transwomen can somehow be distinguished from men, reliably. And if you have self-ID, it is blindingly obvious that there can be no such distinction because sometimes humans do bad things, so sometimes men will pretend to be transwomen to get access to women.

MB: I don't actually understand what point Stephen Clarke was making there.

BC then points out that MB agrees with SC's point and agrees that it is transphobia.

Doesn’t want the same hammering that CMG so she won’t repeat her arguments about what transphobia is

Anyone know how long she's scheduled to be in the witness box for?

shes not helping herself

She also doesn't get why women might want single sex spaces and that saying men who identify as women are as dangerous as men is transphobia.

So anyone saying they want single sex, not single gender, spaces, is transphobic. End of.

MB: gender crit feminists think sex is real, gender is a social construct and transwomen are male

Exactly what I was thinking. The highest priest of all.

Anyone know how long she's scheduled to be in the witness box for?

I think half the day ish?

MB clearly has no clue of the GC argument.

Is this because she hasn't bothered to listen or are her pants on fire.

Pants on fire