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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #22

1000 replies

nauticant · 22/02/2025 14:11

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21

OP posts:
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11
borntobequiet · 24/02/2025 17:58

My whole flat identifies as clean and tidy.

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 24/02/2025 18:06

borntobequiet · 24/02/2025 17:58

My whole flat identifies as clean and tidy.

Damm I missed a trick, I didn't need to spend all morning catching up with housework after half term I could have just self identified as living in a clean and tidy house

NebulousSupportPostcard · 24/02/2025 18:39

0ctavia · 24/02/2025 17:01

Yes that’s right. Then there was an in person ceremony in June 2022 which the rest of DUs class attended, but he didn’t. That might be understandable if he was working in Southampton but he was working/ living just down the road.

It was a big meet up / celebration / party / reunion and he didn’t attend.

For the avoidance of doubt, I’m NOT suggesting that he didn’t graduate or that there is anything incorrect about his paper qualifications . I’m just noting the date In relation to his claim at the tribunal that he was “ fully out “ at work by August 2022. Which I take to mean that he was wearing clothes / hairstyles / make up that he believed to be female, using the name Beth and expecting others to use female pronouns.

Im not clear at what stage he started using the women’s CR at work and started upsetting the female staff.

IIRC SP was clear in her evidence that she had no issue with how he presented or with calling him by a woman’s name ( even though she knew he was a man, which is a protected belief WORIADS). Her issue was his using the women’s CR.

The last rotation was in psychiatry, either on call to A&E or in clinics/community, so he probably didn't need to use changing room. Psychiatrists wear ordinary clothes, not scrubs, and don't need to change at work routinely for infection control like A&E doctors.

Upton may have used CRs previously but wouldn't necessarily have needed to. It would probably be more likely to fly under radar if he was only using toilets because he would have been in ordinary clothes, and toilets may have been shared with clinic staff and patients but just for cubicles and handwashing, not changing.

I wanted someone to ask about this while he was on stand. Maybe Kate Searle will be asked what she knew or believed he meant when he said he would be doing same as for last placement,

Arran2024 · 24/02/2025 18:43

This is similar to what happens if you are adopted. Your old birth certificate still exists but an adoption certificate is issued and this is used instead of a birth certificate. There is no link between the old birth certificate and the new adoption certificate. I believe they copied this system for GR certificates.

OhBuggerandArse · 24/02/2025 18:53

This is just lovely, from Sandie Peggie’s daughter.

https://x.com/nicoleepeggiee/status/1894095500304859522?s=46

NebulousDogBollocking · 24/02/2025 18:55

You beat me to it @OhBuggerandArse 😀

PencilForScale · 24/02/2025 18:59

So many cards!

mrshoho · 24/02/2025 19:01

That is beautiful. I'm glad Sandie knows how much support she has. 💞

SinnerBoy · 24/02/2025 19:03

Knotty

Buy one of those silicon oven liners - saves a lot of mucking about as you can scrub under the tap then put back in.

I have one, it came last week, but I've been putting off cleaning the oven, as its such hard work - as we all know!

teawamutu · 24/02/2025 19:21

OhBuggerandArse · 24/02/2025 18:53

This is just lovely, from Sandie Peggie’s daughter.

https://x.com/nicoleepeggiee/status/1894095500304859522?s=46

OMFG I'm not crying you're crying.

I LOVE that polite letters and thank you cards is how the vipers change the world.

woollyhatter · 24/02/2025 19:32

Arran2024 · 24/02/2025 09:09

Isn't it to do with intersectionality too?

White women are seen as part of the patriarchy as we benefit from it - marrying white guys etc. So we seen to be complicit in the exploitation of minority groups. So we don't have any right to any claims of victimhood. So when we say "get out of our spaces" we are just being oppressors as per usual.

Meanwhile black women are not part of this as they suffer from real victimhood because of their race.

This is where a lot of uni students are coming from. They totally believe they are oppressors and have to atone for it and give minority groups everything they want.

But, but, but I am actually Chinese so isn’t intersectionality a big win for me in the hierarchy of who feelz the most oppressed?

Here is my attempt to up my score in oppression monopoly. Scale 1-5. Top score of 40 is possible

PoC though doubtful my racial profile is regarded as properly oppressed on the scale. 3

Working class background - worked in parental chippy and takeaway 6 days a week 14 hour split shifts so 5, but -2 as parents’ are evil capitalist asset owners and the decades paying the mortgage don’t count. Bonus point as I was treated as slave labour earned less than £2 an hour from age 14. 4

Generational trauma: mum literally starved post WWII. Dad died of alcoholism. Immigrant fam came over to grow Britain 5.

Language- English is technically my second language though I can understand bits I am no longer able to speak my first language so 5-2 for being a cultural sell-out aged 4: 3

Education: state educated but minus 6 as I was first person in my family to go to university but I stuck around as long as uni would have me so embarrassing PhD in dilettante subject which should have made me a dead cert for Aunty Beeb. But my views are deeply problematic and don’t reflect my Russel group pedigree -1

Disability does getting early onset cataracts count due to too much time at manuscripts count? Probably not so 0.

Sexuality-lesbian
5 as super oppressed sexuality apparently even for the male lesbians who we MUST DATE due to cotton ceiling.

Earnings- the worst of the worst shoot me now. -higher rate tax payer. Oh hang on if you shot all the high rate tax payers… still your opinion is mud. Big fat zero. But those doing an internship in a media co while living in flat bought by parents in Battersea get the full 5 point allocation.

A measly 19. Feel free to ignore all I say.

Arran2024 · 24/02/2025 19:38

Sounds like you will be first against the wall!!!😂

PencilForScale · 24/02/2025 19:40

If one were to pay £50 to get one's oven cleaned, would that mean the fan would go round in a more even fashion? I have no idea of the level of cleaning involved in professional cleaning but it does sound cheaper than buying a new oven.

MarieDeGournay · 24/02/2025 20:03

Arran2024 · 24/02/2025 19:38

Sounds like you will be first against the wall!!!😂

I think it sounds like we are all complex beings, our lives aren't one-dimensional, we relate to different people differently in different contexts, and everybody's story, like woollyhatter's, is unique.
It's not a competition.

Conxis · 24/02/2025 20:09

I love that this thread is peppered with oven cleaning adviceGrin
Such a wide range of skills and expertise here

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 24/02/2025 20:13

Wondered why the thread was quiet and it's because it was full and were 13 pages into a new one. Can't keep up

INeedAPensieve · 24/02/2025 20:42

OhBuggerandArse · 24/02/2025 18:53

This is just lovely, from Sandie Peggie’s daughter.

https://x.com/nicoleepeggiee/status/1894095500304859522?s=46

Oh that's lovely! Trying to spot my card in the masses haha. I'm so glad she knows how many people are behind her.x

KnottyAuty · 24/02/2025 20:48

NebulousSupportPostcard · 24/02/2025 18:39

The last rotation was in psychiatry, either on call to A&E or in clinics/community, so he probably didn't need to use changing room. Psychiatrists wear ordinary clothes, not scrubs, and don't need to change at work routinely for infection control like A&E doctors.

Upton may have used CRs previously but wouldn't necessarily have needed to. It would probably be more likely to fly under radar if he was only using toilets because he would have been in ordinary clothes, and toilets may have been shared with clinic staff and patients but just for cubicles and handwashing, not changing.

I wanted someone to ask about this while he was on stand. Maybe Kate Searle will be asked what she knew or believed he meant when he said he would be doing same as for last placement,

Edited

DU was asked about this by the panel after NC finished questioning. But the sound went so TT didn’t record which locations were mentioned but it was possibly during undergrad placements - but as @0ctavia has highlighted with her notes about graduation, this was before DU was “out” as a TW… so presumably the examples don’t count? Maybe this was the first attempt at using a female CR?

The panel also asked about other staff who may have seen DU passing through the department after the CR incident on Xmas Eve. Presumably they’ll ask other staff about it too?

guinnessguzzler · 24/02/2025 20:59

MarieDeGournay · 24/02/2025 20:03

I think it sounds like we are all complex beings, our lives aren't one-dimensional, we relate to different people differently in different contexts, and everybody's story, like woollyhatter's, is unique.
It's not a competition.

Yes, yes, it's all a rich tapestry 😂
Simpsons reference for you there.

Boiledbeetle · 24/02/2025 21:01

OhBuggerandArse · 24/02/2025 18:53

This is just lovely, from Sandie Peggie’s daughter.

https://x.com/nicoleepeggiee/status/1894095500304859522?s=46

It is lovely isn't it!

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #22
JazzyContemporaneousNotes · 24/02/2025 21:38

Whew, just caught up after a weekend away.

It was a rather tense weekend at one poing as my younger male offspring (22yo doing liberal arts degree in Manc) and I had a rather long discussion of why it's important that Trans women are able to access female changing rooms. My DS has swallowed the kool aid and in the end we had to disagree.

I am now in his mind one of those older Karen's (Apologies for any Karen's reading this) who don't care that they are being unkind. When I saw that intersectionality oppression explanation about white wims being part of the oppressors class, I realised that he's put me in that.

Which is really disbelieving the evidence of the last 22 years that he's known me - A Quaker Peace Activist, feminist, gay rights campaigner currently embroiled in my own court case for being a disobedient woman who can definately think for herself.

Apologies for the inevitable spelling mistakes, I'm dyslexic and the spellchecker on my chrome book is broken

I am quite upset about it to be honest, I brought him up to think critically and for himself.

NotAGentleReminder · 24/02/2025 21:41

For those of us on here who were wondering on previous threads where Stonewall got its funding from...
(sorry, don't have share token or archive link)
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trump-aid-freeze-stonewall-job-cuts-07fp0mjpp

WearyAuldWumman · 24/02/2025 21:48

I'm sorry.

Might be worthwhile explaining to your son that the reason that so many Fifers are standing with Sandie Peggie is that - unfortunately - although this is a small area we've had 3 other men claiming trans identity in order to prey on women or girls: Peter Laing/Paris Green; Lennon/Katie Dolatowski; Andrew Burns/Obi Wan Kenobi/Mr Mighty Almighty/Mitzababy/Tiffany Scott.

"Paris" participated in a murder and used being a "woman" to get into a women's prison; "Katie" - amongst other crimes - tried to rape a 10 yr old in Morrison's toilets in Kirkcaldy; "Tiffany" staked a 13 yr from his prison cell and demanded entry to the women's prison estate - nearly managed it too, until the "Isla Bryson" debacle.

NotAGentleReminder · 24/02/2025 21:49

More on Stonewall funding from Maya Forstater. Note NHS Scotland in the list
https://x.com/MForstater/status/1884534417160356095?t=s3BwG2KrKvfPQtaFBpIELA&s=19

PachacutisBadAuntie · 24/02/2025 21:52

OhBuggerandArse · 24/02/2025 18:53

This is just lovely, from Sandie Peggie’s daughter.

https://x.com/nicoleepeggiee/status/1894095500304859522?s=46

Nitter link for those not on X, some lovely comments
https://nitter.net/nicoleepeggiee/status/1894095500304859522?s=46

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