NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #22

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21

Are there no oven cleaning services where you live? They exist in some parts of the country. Call them up and hand over the cash, never clean an oven again.

in London there are companies that will also clean your hob, extractor fan, dishwasher....

If I were a witness in this case I wouldn't dare read about all the shenanigans so far as I know I'd let something slip when I was giving evidence. I can just imagine the resultant sharp intakes of breath around the court room, the hard Paddington bear-like stares from NC & JR and, most especially, the judge.

Not worth it.

I think that you are being a little hard on Wes Streeting. It's the ruling in the FWS case in the Supreme Court that he is waiting for. This is expected imminently & will establish whether or not a GRC trumps a single sex space.

do we know exactly when the FWR outcome is due or is it just a vague 'spring'?

I have no strong views on oven-cleaning.

The TW doesn't have to disclose his GRC, he just has to show his State-falsified birth certificate with "F" where "M" used to be to someone in HR, who then conveys that information to his current line manager. Granted, we might infer the existence of a GRC from that birth certificate existing, but we haven't been told that it exists.

If I understood the article correctly, it's suggesting that we might not have this ruling until a year after the hearing that happened last November....

That's the first time I've seen this timeframe suggested and if it is imminent, then I'll accept that I'm being harsh ☺️ I had originally understood it to be some time this spring, prior to reading this article. But unless he's talking about a different case, it sounds like Wes himself is saying this outcome could be a year down the line.

IIRC some legal bods on twitter have said its due imminently so they should surely know?

Good point.

Just as the law does, we can all just pretend that it makes perfect sense to allow someone to change a historical fact on their birth certificate. There is no need to show their £5 lady ticket at all.

No, that is the Telegraph saying that the outcome could be up to a year after the hearing, not Streeting. He hasn't said anything about the timescale for the ruling. All he has said is that he will wait for that ruling before updating guidance on single-sex facilities.

@PrettyDamnCosmic @prh47bridge I've just read the article again and am happy to stand corrected. The relevant paragraph:

"Supreme Court judges retired to consider their ruling in November but no indication has been given on when they will deliver their verdict. Other ongoing cases have been waiting almost a year for a decision."

So yes, an assumption from the Telegraph rather than some knowledge from Streeting. However, we do seem to be in a "how long is a piece of string" situation if we don't know when it'll be out. I remember the draft Gender Questioning Children guidance being "imminent" for a long time.... about 4 years in total I think.

Hopefully someone can answer @DontTellMeWhat2Do 's question with a more concrete timeline regarding this spring. Meteorologically speaking that's before June..... what does it mean when it's said in a legal "forecast" context?

You can also try soaking the pan with a cup full of biological washing powder and warm water

I thought the falsified birth certificate was the GRC??

No, the GRC is a separate certificate. It states the name, date of birth, new gender and date of issue, then says that, "The above named person is, from the date of issue, of the gender shown."

The holder of a GRC is entitled to an entry in the Gender Recognition Register, which is maintained by the Registrar side by side with the main Register of Births. The new entry is identical to the one in the main register save for name and sex.

A birth certificate is a certified extract from the births register, so the new certificate is just extracted from the GRR instead of the main register.

If any PPs are into genealogy, I'd be interested to know what's searchable by the general public. The intent seems to be to keep the whole process private, between the Registrar and the GRC holder.

I don't think you are being harsh @BonfireLady because as previous posters have pointed out, the FWR ruling concerns those men with a GRC.
As we know, the vast majority of men who are accessing women's single sex spaces do not have one, so Streeting could direct the NHS to ensure their policies bear that in mind and that these men do not, and never should have had, access to unsuspecting and unconsenting women.
We all know it's the presence of the women that is required, not the access to the space, and I have yet to see compelling evidence that these men are unsafe in men's spaces.

There certainly seems to be a lot of unnecessary waiting to see whose going to make what move next involved in this.... and all the while there are males self ID-ing into women's spaces in workplaces, irrespective of GRC status. Unless there is a strategic reasons to be quiet, it does come across as rather weak when the laws are already there in the specific context of work and the definition of sex without a GRC. But if it really is imminent, then full clarity with GRC status included would be helpful. It just seems odd that there is a reluctance (?) to act on the legal clarity that we already have.

I have yet to see compelling evidence that these men are unsafe in men's spaces.

Indeed. Although I could still accept this at face value and would support TW asking for third spaces i.e. in addition to single-sex spaces. But as you say, that's not the loudest demand when it comes to the different reasons (proportionately speaking) that different types of TW want to use women's spaces. Reasons that become obvious when they are clear enough to be seen.

Yes that’s right. Then there was an in person ceremony in June 2022 which the rest of DUs class attended, but he didn’t. That might be understandable if he was working in Southampton but he was working/ living just down the road.

It was a big meet up / celebration / party / reunion and he didn’t attend.

For the avoidance of doubt, I’m NOT suggesting that he didn’t graduate or that there is anything incorrect about his paper qualifications . I’m just noting the date In relation to his claim at the tribunal that he was “ fully out “ at work by August 2022. Which I take to mean that he was wearing clothes / hairstyles / make up that he believed to be female, using the name Beth and expecting others to use female pronouns.

Im not clear at what stage he started using the women’s CR at work and started upsetting the female staff.

IIRC SP was clear in her evidence that she had no issue with how he presented or with calling him by a woman’s name ( even though she knew he was a man, which is a protected belief WORIADS). Her issue was his using the women’s CR.

It blew my mind when I first found out that someone can get an actual birth certificate with their declared belief positioned as fact (after receiving a GRC).

(Equally so that the Passport Office and DVLA support this change for passports and driving licences, without any requirement for proof that this fact change is legally valid)

@BonfireLady I agree - why the delay? The law is clear now (as politicians keep saying) so why not actually enforce it now? While they mess around women are being forced to stay quiet and put up with men in our toilets and changing rooms

You don't need to do that! Get an oven cleaning company round. For about £50 they leave the oven looking like it just came out of the box.

Surely criminal minds will use the facility of a GRC to get a new passport/DL etc. then just wear the wig and lipstick going through immigration or hastily donned if stopped by the police. Is this possible? If so, OMG. 😳

I'm sure you are right - but I think that that's more nuanced than most tras and people who have bought their arguments believe. They genuinely think that white women are part of the oppressing group in society.

You don't even need a grc to change the sex on a passport or driving licence

Can't it just identify as a clean oven? Get itself a new Grime Renaming Certificate or something?