NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

I haven’t exercised for days
My house is in serious need of a clean
I nearly lost my 900 day streak on duolingo

Every spare minute I have had for the past week I have spent reading these threads.

I can only apologise that it took me so long to get here.

Many thanks to all on this board for the education

Well this is the question.

Ultimately, doesn't the question of whether either party's behaviour constitutes harassment hinge on whether they believed they were stating facts?

If Sandie was stating facts and she was uncomfortable because DU is a biological man in a woman's space, then how can it be harassment?

The thing is, meanwhile elsewhere, we have this
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271946-unison-womens-conference-motion-trans-women-are-women-as-nurses-battle-nhs-for-single-sex-facilities?latest=1

While this ET is looking optimistic to us, we don’t have a union ready to fight our corner. It’s criminal.

I nearly lost my 900 day streak on duolingo

I kept my streak but got demoted a league.

Haha. I really have found my people.

The timing is spectacular; I hope the press pick it up before the conference ends.

Just caught up. IANAL but surely they are all totally fucked.

Fife, Upton most of all, ED (although I have some sympathy for her as she was completely and utterly out of her depth and probably thinking about her pension).

And JR might change her mind about specialising in these types of cases because she's been totally fucked over by them too. I know we've been surprised in the past but I just can't see how this can go any other way than in Sandie's favour.

But what an eye opener, let them speak indeed.

Broadly speaking NHS Fife's case is that if they write something into their policies, they become law, whether are not they tell anybody, and that if the feelings of a trans identifying man are hurt, then it is right that a woman can be punished.

Obviously it's far far more complicated than that.

Helpfully (cismyfatarse's link, thank you) the Scotsman article points to the tribunal's ability to make recommendations. I think this could be helpful as while the tribunal 'may have no choice but to find' on some narrow technical legal matters there is the opportunity to address broader areas/failures that merit review. On the legality of policy, conflict with protected beliefs, the need for a substantive test for complaints for example. Interesting pressure for the judge.

Glad I'm not the only one, my streak's nearly 1800 days so haven't lost it yet but it's been close!

Wow; just caught up.

Do we know if DU did choose to stay and watch the rest?

I was wondering about his reaction when NC mentioned the cheek swab. Then when J mentioned getting someone to clarify R’s sex.

Had pleasant thoughts of him violently objecting to being cheek swabbed 🤣.

'Nothing is more important than the wants of men' has been going through my head a lot this week

This is the kind of thing I was talking about. GC ppl are in a bit of an echo chamber - bear in mind MN is one of the few places you can even discuss this, don't even try it on Reddit for example.

I've been very popular at work this week - I've made all the tea just so I can whizz through a few dozen posts while the kettle boils, then a another few dozen in the (thankfully single sex) loo after.

For info, there's a petition on parliament.uk to repeal the GRA. Signatures are steadily creeping up; if it hits 100,000 it'll be debated in parliament.

I've not signed it as I want to reflect on all of this and do a bit more research before I decide. A few days ago I was pro-rainbow, and turning TERF so quickly has given me intellectual and emotional whiplash!

I know many of you are very dedicated to the cause, in which case you might want to sign the petition. I'm speculating but perhaps it was someone on here that started it. It closes on 12 August.

I partly agree, @Caerulea , but the various fundraisers suggest that we aren’t alone. The wo/man in the street is more closely allied with MN. But the institutions have been captured. Not the populace, so much.

The populace don't realise what is happening, until it begins to touch them. By then it's almost too late.

@ThatDaringMintCritic do you know roughly how opinion is falling there?

If you're on TikTok, this made me think of HR in Fife NHS 😂

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGdy1rEDa/

This sounds familiar, and I'm wondering whether I can get the supermarket shopping done before 10am tomorrow. I can't even send DH because he's glued to the coverage too now.

I think NC would do well to avoid that line of questioning with KS, and concentrate on KS's emails and other interference involvement in the investigations and actions.

Phew finally caught up! Really wish we were still able to watch this, but the tweeting has been sterling. Was so moved to see the letter from Sandie, so glad she knows she's got so many of us behind her. And she's so lovely, she's going to donate the funds raised to charity, but I'd love it if she used a bit of the money for a well deserved ' treat'' for herself!

On the question of sex - Theodore Upton has a birth certificate, a graduation certificate for his degree, a wedding certificate. What does Beth Upton have? I guess he may have changed his driving license and passport.

I worked in the NHS. Unfortunately, this shit happens because managers, on the whole, are business focused not patient-focused.
They are driven by collecting investor in people awards and stonewall badges, so they attend the training days then come back and put this shit into policy. They are more concerned with being able to say they are an 'inclusive' organisation or have a Stonewall gold badge or some such shit.
The impact on staff is not considered, it's all about bolstering their management CV for the next role.
Over 37 years you could tell when management had been sent on the latest trendiest management course because posters would appear and SOPs would be written. meanwhile, we still didn't have enough pillows.
Its easy to sit in an office and proclaim that people are who they say they are and 'be kind' without considering the impact on those it would affect. most nurse managers have very little power in real life and are just there as a mouthpiece for upper management, to implement whatever shit they want implemented. They will go along without because if they don't they will get managed out.
One of the reasons I never chose to go for a band 7, you were just a puppet.
Drs are considered more valuable than nurses and in any case where it's one or the other they will always throw the nurse under the bus. good for Sandie that she didn't take it lying down.

Curious to know how it would work if one of the medical staff there was a transgender male. Which CR would they be expected to use (or can they choose)?
If a female-bodied trans man tried to use the CR at the same time as Dr U for whatever reason, would he object to them being there - on account of his belief that they are now ‘biologically’ male (if that’s what they say they are) and “as a woman” he
has a right to female-only CR? Or would he be comfortable to share with them / allow access, as even he knows they are female deep down?
…doubt Sandi would have had the same issue if she’d been sharing with a female-bodied trans person though. It’s the fact he was MALE, not trans, that caused all this!