NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

That's a fair point, maybe all decamping to the mythical basement changing room would make the same point without impinging on anyone else.

It possibly isn't lawful. But as with everything else it will need to be challenged in the courts. Obviously the NHS could make use of the single-sex exceptions in the EA but they have chosen instead to throw women under the bus. The NHS prioritise transgenderism over women's safety, privacy and dignity at every possible opportunity.

Sandie's case will not affect Annex B. Annex B is relating to where patients are accommodated and can usually be found in the same-sex accommodation policy.

I've seen lawyers say that in this case the relevant law is the Workplace (Health Safety and Welfare) Regulations because it isn't related to the provision of a service.

I think you need to go back to nauticants opening post which sets out the complaints of SP which are not as you have described, and are not before the court.

@RedToothBrush I 100% want to be wrong! Nothing would make me happier & I'll be first in line to say it too, don't get me wrong. Like I say, I've been in this position & it made me incredibly miserable watching it play out.

Spoiled both my last two ballots. No one I could vote for.

Yes. I've just realised it's been suspended

I don't think he's acting in bad faith when he says its nonsense and he things its nonsense. It is nonsense.

I don't think he's making any pretense that he's doing it for womens rights either though. I think he's been very clear in saying he just thinks its bollocks, its a waste of money and hurts kids. He's clear in saying that its a trust issue and this makes me more trust worthy, than them, rather than championing women.

If anything its all rather 'manly' in tone in terms of 'protecting MY women' in a sexist / old fashion way. I've never read Trump as 'pro-woman' on this subject tbh!

But meh.

Is there actually any man or woman who thinks their elderly bedridden/demented mum should be in a bed next to a grown man on a poorly staffed ward at night

It's been mentioned but not the exact quote as far as I've seen. The "facilities are easily accessible, of sufficient capacity and provided with seating" would presumably rule out getting changed in the broom cupboard or whatever cupboard Sandie was offered." Thanks.

Oh don't worry items for wife work are made to fit women! It was nigh on impossible to find pushchair 6'4" DH could push comfortably (thank god for the tall, progressive Dutch). Still searching for an vacuum we can both use without one of us getting backache.

I'd love it to be the judge but it sounds like she's pointing to a bearded man and I don't think he's got one. Plus it might be a bit of an awks thing for counsel to do.

Michael Foran perhaps?

@NebulousHog don't be too despondent- it’s a distressing idea but we’re getting safer with every court case.

As we are in need of an expert witness to determine DU sex, deemed relevant by the judge today, how likely is it NC will be allowed to call such a witness?

"I appreciate this is a broad-ranging discussion prompted but not confined to the actual tribunal. I am also however, acutely aware that the application of the law is neither a personality contest or indeed a test of common sense, and the judge will be limited to adjudicating on the specific legal complaint"

Interestingly, the Court of Appeal released its judgment yesterday on a case in a similar area - I don't know if there is an MN thread on that case though.

The judgment is here:

Higgs v Farmor's School [2025] EWCA Civ 109

That was a complicated case. Mrs Higgs had been dismissed from this secondary school due to a couple of posts that she had re-posted on Facebook back in 2018.

The posts basically said that there are only two sexes, sex education shouldn't be taught in primary school and that topics such as gay marriage should also not be taught in primary school.

The Court of Appeal held that she had been subject to unlawful direct discrimination on the ground of religion or belief.

We've lost public respect and support on this issue and let 'the right' take credit for standing up for women's rights.

I'm furious that my party (Labour) has been pathetic on this in order to pander to the delusions of a tiny minority and the bullying tactics of their cheerleaders. I loathe the way gender critical views have been framed as bigotry rather than a refusal to accept regressive sexist stereotyping. I'm incandescent that so many children and teens have been (and are being) abused with powerful, potentially irreversible medication.

The 'born in the wrong body' mantra is deeply homophobic and another example of regressing to the sex stereotypes so many of us fought against for decades. When I was a young girl in the 1950s/60s, nobody would have bought me the train set, toy boat or Meccano that I wanted (I also loved dolls thankfully). By the 1980s, my own children had access to whatever they wanted to play with but now we hear people claiming that their son must be a girl because he likes pink and princesses. I despair and I feel very let down by 'the left' but I'm not resigning my membership because I still want to have my say (and I do!).

Apologies if I over-edited the actual complaint as outlined in Nauticants OP but my actual question was to possible outcomes that are actually within the gift of the tribunal and the broader impact of that. Which feels quite a relevant question amidst all the broader noise.

I think SP has been back at work for quite a while. No doubt the ET application will have helped motivate Fife to sort themselves out a bit. But she hasn't been allowed to discuss it with colleagues.

DU would probably have moved to another job with an unblemished record after the 12month contract was up.

Why has this even got to court? What an inordinate waste of tax payers money, just think how else this money could be spent.
If a doctor doesn't understand the difference between a male and female body they quite frankly how the hell do they pass the anatomy and physiology exams.
Furthermore I thought part of the GMC registration meant doctors had to have integrity, according to sky news report DU they are not male, so If du genuinely believes du is a woman then I would question his ability to understand reality and wonder about du's fitness to practice.
I can't believe the absolute farce our society has become; when people dying from lack of hospital beds; when families are living in substandard accommodation or about to be made homeless due to lack of affordable housing; when education is is disarray and all that money is being wasted because a man doesn't know he's a man and shouldn't be entering a female changing space. Absolutely sick of this nonsense.

I think when next asked by any NHS portal or person how I identify I might answer ‘quite litigious’ or should I go with ‘very litigious’?

During handover nurses are allocated patients according to their level of experience. So if a patient is very unwell ie being filtered and or on pressers they would be cared for by the more experienced nurses male or female.

However in ICU performing intimate care such as washing would require at least 3 members of staff to help to turn the patient and change sheets.

when I worked on ICU if a male nurse was allocated a very sick icu patient they would help roll the patient and a female nurse would usually do the washing.

female staff would catheterise female patients and usually men would catheterise male patients.

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/neil-gray-nhs-trans-tribunal-involving-dr-beth-upton-could-potentially-have-wider-implications-4989619

Scottish government being pushed into taking a stance. Trying to avoid it but it is not going to go away.

I'd like to know similar to @motherofgodhaudyerwheesht - obviously the subject matter has generated 15,000 posts recently as it's so wide-ranging (dare I say "nebulous"...) but the legal test must be within a fairly narrow constraint ... I'd be interested to know what Fife's side has got going for it, legally speaking?

Unless 'Be Kind' passed into legislation, it looks from here like NHS Fife have no legal legs to stand on.

I've been asking questions for years about our NHS organisation's policy of allowing men into women's single sex spaces. They maintain that they offer single-sex spaces as TWAW. After much discussion, pointing to law/policy/tribunals they have doubled down on this approach. Have asked about impact on women - this has been ignored. Appreciate they have been Stonewalled but it does feel like more than that. As PP have said, seniors who are more personally involved?

Oh and enormously thankful thanks particularly to Nauticant and Ickky xx