Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 14

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9

Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10

Thread 11 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555145-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-11

Thread 12 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555687-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-12

Thread 13 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556235-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-13

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Katherine McGahy - Bar Council Ethics Committee's VC (24 May)
Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
Colin Cook - clerk at GCC (24 May
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, to concluded on 25th May)
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing
Kathryn Cronin - barrister at GCC

To come:

Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge.
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers

I think BC is doing a great job but needs to get her to drill down a bit and not discuss the law in theory.

Welcome to our world, EJ 😭

AH interruption! twix!

God she's tripping herself up with her own brain!

I absolutely adore BC's use of "men who identify as women" in order to avoid saying "transwomen". He's not being pointed, he is doing this so that the tribunal understands completely what he's talking about. It's about clarity.

The blanket exceptions of themselves.... I can't understand MB

This is not a discussion on finer points of the law. How it is difficult to understand.

She doesn’t know if she understands the argument? She thinks she’s being clever.
BC having to explain in small words.
EJG will see straight through this I think though

She's being deliberately obtuse here. Keeps trying to take it back to the law and refusing to understand the arguments.

Ben is going to be working very hard with this slippery witness

BC - MB can't understand the concerns of GC feminists - does not understand the arguments in support of single sex spaces that are in MB's terms 'blanket exclusionary'?

BC very clear that this means single SEX not single GENDER

MB struggling very very very hard as she's has never heard it put it like this before....

"Are you saying, Mr Cooper, that 'water is wet' and 'grass is green'?". <Shocked and befuddled face>. <Never come across that thought before>.

Also MB, this is not a debate.

Oh for gods sake either she's as thick as mince or worried about trying to appear reasonable as she knows she undermines GCC's case

I think she's read too much Judith Butler!

aaaaand the complete mangling of sentence structure and word meaning begins! whilst she plays the I don't understand what you're trying to say card

FUCKING HELLLLLLLLL

Do transwomen follow the violent behaviour is CIS men?

EJG laughing in exasperation.

First day in and then link dropped. Quick tech advice?

😂

MB understands GC argument re single sex spaces.

BC asks if she understands GC concerns re self ID.

MB waffles about law, legal recognition.

AH interrupts. Says MB not arguing for blanket inclusion.

BC does MB understand GC concerns re self ID?

MB talks about GC feminists excluding transpeople

BC asks does she understand GC concerns re self ID

MB Yes, well, not fully, what is the justification

EJ just laughed (with gratitute) when BC said "Well, there are a NUMBER of justifications.

I think she is getting fed up already at her inability to say "YES,"

MB 'Cis men' - argh!

I've just upset the dog by pummelling the table top!

MB thinks she understands what GC people are saying about single sex spaces. They essentially say that the exceptions in the EA are a blanket for trans exclusion.

BC points out he is not arguing the legal element. Does MB understand that GC feminists argue that the justifications for excluding men don’t change if the man identifies as a woman?

MB asks whether that is ‘playing into the narrative that transwomen follow male patterns of violence’?

EJ intervenes to come back to the case. Is BC taking issue with MB’s statement that she doesn’t consider GC feminists bigoted?

BC comes back to the bundle.

MB: is excluding transwomen if men are excluded based on similar offending patterns?

(ME: no MB, it's based on them all being <a word I'm not allowed to use>)