Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 14

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9

Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10

Thread 11 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555145-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-11

Thread 12 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555687-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-12

Thread 13 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556235-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-13

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Katherine McGahy - Bar Council Ethics Committee's VC (24 May)
Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
Colin Cook - clerk at GCC (24 May
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, to concluded on 25th May)
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing
Kathryn Cronin - barrister at GCC

To come:

Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge.
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers

I’m in!!! Seriously hope I did this right!

EJG - we seem to be straying a lot here

MB - that may have been my fault....

CHINNY RECKON?

If there are justifications for excluding men then those justifications would equally apply to tw?

MB never thought of it like that (so her agreement that women are allowed single sex spaces seems fairly precarious)

@lanadelgrey log out and come in again - it happens a lot

It's the normal TRA argument isn't it.

Women for all purposes.

Except no, because of the exceptions. And there you have it. EHRC endorsed exceptions, including changing rooms, sport and rape counselling.

BC quotes MB from the GRA training video as saying she wouldn’t engage with Women’s Place and then clearly quotes her comments (that MB believes there is something wrong with not believing transwomen are women).

BEn: what you are doing there is discrimination

"She's being deliberately obtuse here. Keeps trying to take it back to the law and refusing to understand the arguments." Yes @FacebookPhotos I was about to say Is she being deliberately obtuse re understanding the concern about Self ID and the risks!!

Fuck sake. She's treating this like a debate and forgetting she's a witness and her job is to answer the question not to give us all the benefit of her thoughts. Ben needs to make his questions very closed - yes or no answer only.

She's appearing to be trying too hard to be cooperative and chatty as opposed to TW's very clipped "yes" and "no".

I'm also enjoying the look on Martin Reuby's face as he listens to this

Frightening that she is a judge

MB says WPUK's position is for a blanket exclusion and that is why she didn't want them involved in round table discussions.

(Again, that is not what she said. She took issue with their view that transwomen aren't women.)

BC: GC feminists say if you make it harder to say who's a woman - self ID - you make it harder to enforce who can't enter single-sex spaces. Do you understand that argument.

An awful lot of to and fro with MB saying goodness knows what.

MB obfuscating wildly. Everyone loses the thread. A strategy?

Oh she is doing a stabby finger now to explain why a women's place should have been left out

That was rather an effective position advanced by MB about her prejudice towards Women's Place. I wonder if it is true?

So MB's problem with WPUK is that MB believes that WPUK see the EA exceptions as blanket exceptions and no-one should be able to be allowed access to spaces of the opposite sex at all (I paraphrase).

single sex seems to mean a very different thing to her than to me

But there is no provision for Gender Identity in the equality Act! It's for people who are transitioning - but that in itself is a bit vague.

MB now trying to suggest her objection to WPUK is just because their involvement wouldn't have been productive.

Woman's Place UK beyond the pale for MB.

"Don't want Women's Place to come to my roundtables as I don't think that would be fruitful to our discussion."

I BUILD MY ECHO CHAMBER WITH MY FRIENDS!

MB can't remember what documents she was looking at, but she can remember enough to tell BC that the comment he's just asked her about needs to be read in conjunction with one specific other document.

Interesting how she has crystal recollection of evidence when she wants it but can't remember anything at other times

MB 'are you aligning transwomen with cis men?' incredulous, attempting to understand you face

FFS

BC says again, that isn't my question. He's asking her about the objection: the comment that they think transwomen aren't women. He suggests this reveals MB's prejudice.