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Original poster

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

OP posts:

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Needspaceforlego · 18/07/2025 13:13

JamieCannister · 18/07/2025 13:11

And presumably they found "something"? If there was nothing that was at the very least "interesting" (and potentially, "utterly damning") then there would be no need to say anything other than "we are not calling witnesses re: the contents of the phone because there was nothing that adds to the case".

I wonder if the forensic examination needed to be forensic to find anything? If there is something on their incriminating then I do hope Upton deleted it, ideally just before handing the phone over.

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Oh look forward to that being brought out in court! That will be interesting.

I really wish this could be televised, or at least made into a TV Drama at some point

NImumconfused · 18/07/2025 13:14

yourhairiswinterfire · 18/07/2025 13:12

MarieDeGournay · Today 12:29

I said this before about IB's testimony - there is an air of unreality about the whole thing because when EP talks about SP's aggression and mentioning rapists and prisons and all that, and the devastating effect it had on poor DrU, hanging over it all is the fact that NHS Fife admitted that there was no evidence that any of it ever happened.

Am I remembering right that in his evidence, DU said SP didn't actually mention rapists (Isla Bryson), he just assumed she was comparing him to one because she mentioned men in women's prisons?

The other witnesses won't know what he said when giving evidence, so it's a bit 😬hearing them use it as an excuse for their appalling treatment of SP.

It's just more evidence that they took everything he said at face value, without taking the trouble to hear Sandie's side or wondering if he might just possibly be exaggerating.

Merrymouse · 18/07/2025 13:15

prh47bridge · 18/07/2025 13:07

If this is accurate and Jim Borwick is being called, it sounds like Upton's phone has been examined. I can't see any other reason for calling an expert in forensic examination of mobile phones.

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So Jim Borwick is being called as a witness for NHS Fife, and they think their case is helped by his evidence?

prh47bridge · 18/07/2025 13:16

JamieCannister · 18/07/2025 13:11

I wonder if the forensic examination needed to be forensic to find anything? If there is something on their incriminating then I do hope Upton deleted it, ideally just before handing the phone over.

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It is not impossible that Fife would call him to say there wasn't anything in an attempt to undermine any arguments that Upton made things up, but I agree that, if this report is accurate, it is more likely he is being called by SP's team.

ickky · 18/07/2025 13:16

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 18/07/2025 13:08

About that bit where EP said she thought DrU looked "a little pale"

The pictures of him we've seen make me think that him looking a bit peelie wallie (pale) is just normal for him.

😆I said to Dh , he's Scottish, he is always fucking pale.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2025 13:16

Merrymouse · 18/07/2025 13:09

Vic Valentine, the manager of charity Scottish Trans, is expected to give evidence next week.

Can anyone give any insight into how they might think this will help them?

Wellllll given who they have put forward so far, I'm not quite sure I understand the question....

Greyskybluesky · 18/07/2025 13:16

katmarie · 18/07/2025 13:13

I believe they agreed to accept VV's testimony as already submitted as a witness statement t the end of yesterday's session, so I'm not sure if he will be appearing or not.

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THEY if you will....🙄

OhBuggerandArse · 18/07/2025 13:17

Apparently Kate Searle's letter was one of the documents that Fife failed to disclose when they should have done. https://x.com/Broonjunior/status/1946171121427992897

https://x.com/Broonjunior/status/1946171121427992897

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 18/07/2025 13:17

SqueakyDinosaur · 18/07/2025 11:27

Another thing that occurs to me is that it's the Xmas Eve night shift. I've been in A&E on Xmas eve (escorting a colleague who'd been attacked in the pub I was working in) and it was CARNAGE.

And yet EP and DU spent 30mins talking about his hurty feelings and with the walk to the car I am prepared to bet EP was out of action for at least an hour, and sent DU home. So that's one doctor down, and the head of A&E AWOL for an hour, on one of the busiest nights of the year. So much for a focus on patients.

To be fair to EP, I think she had completed her clinical work and the soothing of poor Beth occurred when she could already have been heading hime.

Mmmnotsure · 18/07/2025 13:18

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 18/07/2025 11:48

Ah the joys of a well-educated middle class male upbringing. Lots of them don’t hear the word no until they do their UCAS application. Upton has led a gilded life and is totally unaccustomed to being challenged

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Ah, yes,

FlamingoLlama · 18/07/2025 13:19

OhBuggerandArse · 18/07/2025 13:17

Apparently Kate Searle's letter was one of the documents that Fife failed to disclose when they should have done. https://x.com/Broonjunior/status/1946171121427992897

Well they wouldn't have disclosed it willingly, would they. It's appalling.

lollylo · 18/07/2025 13:19

DeanElderberry · 18/07/2025 08:08

Quite.

But as an aside for discussion some other time when we are not all spellbound by NC's professionalism, I am increasingly struck by the extent to which the true believers have never had to be exposed to anything outside their own bubble. In the old days when we read paper books and magazines and newspapers and had a limited number of TV channels we came into contact with many different ideas and worldviews.

We read popular fiction produced 60 or 70 years before we were born, absorbed the fact that the world is diverse. Some of the under 30s have never had to do that. No wonder they're so narrow minded.

And they never know any history, but that's a whole other rant. As I said, for another day.

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Did we? I was born in the seventies, most of my grandparents generation had not been to university and left school at 14, my parents similarly and left school at 15. The tv channels and print media were infused with a largely white, middle class, male view of the world - challenged a bit as the the working classes started getting into uni. Politicians were mc, even aristocratic. What books from 60-70 years early showed a ‘diverse’ world view? The western literary cannon wasn’t diverse.

I don’t think this is why these ideas have gained traction.

prh47bridge · 18/07/2025 13:20

Merrymouse · 18/07/2025 13:15

So Jim Borwick is being called as a witness for NHS Fife, and they think their case is helped by his evidence?

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Not necessarily. I think it is more likely that he is being called by SP's team, so there case will resume briefly after Fife have finished. Whilst the normal approach is the hear all the claimant's evidence then hear all the defendant's evidence, if significant new evidence emerges after the claimant has finished presenting their case they will normally be allowed to present the new evidence after the defendant has finished their case.

rebmacesrevda · 18/07/2025 13:20

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 18/07/2025 13:17

To be fair to EP, I think she had completed her clinical work and the soothing of poor Beth occurred when she could already have been heading hime.

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And she probably can't even claim overtime for it. Should get double pay for having to do that sort of nonsense.

Waitwhat23 · 18/07/2025 13:20

Hoardasurass · 18/07/2025 13:07

Wait till you try and deep fried mars bar with chips🤣

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Place near me will deep fry just about any chocolate bar you ask for but refuse to do creme eggs as they apparently explode in the fryer.

Me, I like either a smoked sausage supper or (very, very occasionally) a half pizza crunch (the crunch is because it's fried).

Honestly, we do have some fantastic (non fried) food as well! I had a Cullen skink to die for near the Kyle of Lochalsh.

lissetteattheRitz · 18/07/2025 13:20

OhBuggerandArse · 18/07/2025 13:17

Apparently Kate Searle's letter was one of the documents that Fife failed to disclose when they should have done. https://x.com/Broonjunior/status/1946171121427992897

OMG

katmarie · 18/07/2025 13:20

Greyskybluesky · 18/07/2025 13:16

THEY if you will....🙄

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Oooops!!!! Someone better walk their themness to their car, forthwith!

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 18/07/2025 13:21

ickky · 18/07/2025 13:16

😆I said to Dh , he's Scottish, he is always fucking pale.

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😂

I'll admit my actual first thought was "Aye well we do live in Scotland EP! FFs we're all a bit pale" 🙄😂

And my mum used to say stuff like "You're looking awful peakit/peelie wallie the day! If you were any paler you'd be see through!". I'm naturally a bit olive toned but still your average pale as feck Scot 😂

Merrymouse · 18/07/2025 13:21

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2025 13:16

Wellllll given who they have put forward so far, I'm not quite sure I understand the question....

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Fair!

I'm confused because I imagine that Vic Valentine would be a useful witness if you wanted to show that the hospital had not discriminated against somebody on the ground of gender reassignment. It's less clear whether Vic Valentine is a helpful witness if you are trying to establish that you didn't discriminate against somebody because they are either a woman or have GC beliefs.

crazysnakess · 18/07/2025 13:22

NImumconfused · 18/07/2025 13:14

It's just more evidence that they took everything he said at face value, without taking the trouble to hear Sandie's side or wondering if he might just possibly be exaggerating.

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The question we have to ask is what would have happened if any of them had tried to talk Upton down from that ledge, if they'd actually questioned any of it. They'd be in Sandie's position. They'd already been told in no uncertain terms that his use of the female changing room was not to be challenged because he had permission to be in there.

JamieCannister · 18/07/2025 13:22

prh47bridge · 18/07/2025 13:16

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Fair point.

On the other hand "you can trust the bloke who claims to not know he's male and who claims to be scared of women a foot shorter than him despite being a rugby player, because we have no evidence he deleted stuff off his phone to hide the truth" is hardly a game-chaing argument!

IAmNotASheep · 18/07/2025 13:22

NebulousDog · 18/07/2025 12:31

I am copying this across from X (credit: Mr Malky - who now appears on my feed thanks to algorithms):
Dr Pitt is squirming and sweating (and rubbing her hands between her knees) as she tells the court that a 6ft bloke in his twenties could be intimidated by a 5ft 2 nurse in her fifties

Out damn spot!

Thanks Nebulous. Interesting. Either it’s very hot or

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

KnottyAuty · 18/07/2025 13:23

OhBuggerandArse · 18/07/2025 11:58

Transcript of Kate Searle's email, from Maya Forstater who is at the tribunal and can view the bundle.
https://x.com/MForstater/status/1946162128957698119

Holy moly - that is NOT a neutral email informing colleagues of basic facts and an IX to start... Shocker that this morning's witness claimed otherwise

Merrymouse · 18/07/2025 13:23

prh47bridge · 18/07/2025 13:20

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Thank you!

CriticalCondition · 18/07/2025 13:23

Those of us following the case in February knew that NC had identified this strangely absent email as the Biggest Smoking Gun Ever.

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