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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28
Thread 29: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

OP posts:
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23
ItsCoolForCats · 17/07/2025 17:53

That BBC headline is infuriating. Are they likely to change it if enough of us complain?

Edited for typo

Justabaker · 17/07/2025 17:54

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 17:10

Is NC a KC now?

No, she is not. Not all good barristers. And not all KCs are good barristers.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 17:54

ThatCyanCat · 17/07/2025 17:31

Chromosomes dictate sex but they don't define it. Your biological sex is defined by whether your body is formed around the production of small gametes (male) or large gametes (female).

Chromosomes make that process happen. In well over 99% of cases, XY is male and XX female. However, there are some DSDs that are exceptions. For example, it is possible to have an XXY karyotype - Klinefelter syndrome, which affects only men. Swyer syndrome, where a Y chromosome doesn't not work, leads to a female body without fully formed ovaries (gonadal smears). The woman with Swyer's has a body formed around producing large gametes, even if she isn't capable of producing them.

The karyotype dictated the sex but isn't what we ook at to define it, precisely because of cases like these. Your chromosomes are your karytoype, not your sex.

Now it's perhaps possible that Bumba has a DSD she doesn't know about, although it's vanishingly unlikely if she's reached adulthood with no signs of one. She is, however, definitely female.

Edited

The concept of 'reasonableness' crops up again.

Is it reasonable to assume sex, based on the information or cues we have in most cases?
Yes.

Do you have to be 100% accurate?
No.

You just have to make a reasonable judgement that any other reasonable person would make. Thus in exceptional circumstances as long as you had behaved in a way that was consistent with what anyone else would reasonably assume, you can still be acting fairly even if it later turned out to be wrong for exceptional reasons.

For example for someone with a DSD.

Justabaker · 17/07/2025 17:54

Argh - Not all good barristers are KCs.

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 17:55

@ThatCyanCat Many thanks for the detailed explanation. I make no claims to be a biologist! However I did study philosophy a long time ago and the nature of knowledge and you don't have to rule out vanishingly small probabilities to know a statement.

I guess I had in mine cases like Caster Semenya, assuming case is genuine and they were assigned female at birth and continued to believe that the were female (although obviously went through male puberty and given has testicles producing sperm) is arguably male.

I could redo my argument summary but this is starting to make my brain ache and I think it's roughly correct still? Also, there are some philosophical challenges around the meaning of words as science changes.

KateShugakIsALegend · 17/07/2025 17:55

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 16:29

The BBC headline
Nurse confronted trans doctor in 'unacceptable' manner, tribunal hears
is incredibly deceitful.
Yes the tribunal heard that; they also heard it admitted that SP had not been aggressive and had not raised her voice; and furthermore it was the NHS Fife witness's opinion that there was no acceptable way to challenge DrU's presence in the women's CR, because it was inherently discriminatory to do so.

And underpinning it all is the fact that it has since been acknowledged that there is no evidence that SP said those things at all, in any manner acceptable or 'unacceptable'.

But the headline stands, and some of the the mud sticks.
Nurse confronted trans doctor in 'unacceptable' manner, tribunal hears

Lots of complaints to the BBC should help fix this.

ThatCyanCat · 17/07/2025 17:56

moto748e · 17/07/2025 17:46

It's pretty bad luck to be born with such a rare condition as Sweyer syndrome, but for those few unfortunates, how it must rub salt in the wound to see people with DSDs being so cynically used to suit TRAs' agenda.

Bearing in mind that people with DSDs obviously don't all agree on everything, there's been a clear consensus for years in the community that they are sick of being exploited by TRAs with misinformation spread about their conditions and the implication that they aren't men or women. DSDs have nothing to do with being trans. And Swyer syndrome results in a female body. That's literally where the DSD is, a female body on what would usually be a male karyotype.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 17/07/2025 17:57

NextRinny · 17/07/2025 17:06

The whole chromosome dna testing nonsense annoys me.
Being transgender means your gender identity doesn't align with your sex.
The transgender person is fully aware of their sex if not they wouldn't be reporting a misalignment. Yet none of them have had dna tests!
But apparently this who are gait in their skin must have tests to know this elusive detail. Hypocrisy.

"Who are you?" said the Caterpillar.

"I—I hardly know, sir, just at present," Alice replied rather shyly, "at least I know who I was when I got up this morning, but I think I must have been changed several times since then."

Needspaceforlego · 17/07/2025 18:00

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 16:39

In the UK, the terms ‘harassment’, ‘intimidation’ and ‘abuse’ are often used interchangeably as the experience for victims can overlap[1]. The Home Office and the Department of Health Guidance on Developing and Implementing Multi-agency Policies and Procedures to Protect Vulnerable Adults from Abuse define abuse as a single act or repeated physical, verbal or psychological acts that violate an individual’s human and civil rights. Some cases of abuse constitute criminal offences. For example, physical, psychological or sexual assault, theft, fraud and gender and racial discrimination.

The Protection from Harassment Act 1997 indicates that someone’s actions amount to harassment when they make the victim feel distressed, humiliated, threatened or fearful of further violence. The main goal of harassment is to persuade victims either not to do something that they are entitled or required to do or to do something that they are not obliged to do. Actions listed under the Protection from Harassment Act include, but are not limited to:

phone calls
letters
emails
visits
stalking
verbal abuse of any kind, including on social media
threats
damage to property
bodily harm[2].
Such actions amount to harassment when they occur more than once.

https://www.local.gov.uk/definition-harassment-abuse-and-intimidation

My bold.

Upton tried to intimidate Peggie by enlisting the support of others in front of her in order to make her feel powerless. He used his higher rank in work to close ranks over her.

This is why this part is significant - it shows an example of harassment as defined in law. NC has to prove this happened on at least two occasions for a harassment claim to succeed.

Surely everything she has been put thought is harassment, suspension without cause, and the disciplinary.

I hope she gets some decent compensation and can retire on it. Im slightly stunned at the compensation figures mentioned in the consultants case.

CatKings · 17/07/2025 18:02

moto748e · 17/07/2025 17:46

It's pretty bad luck to be born with such a rare condition as Sweyer syndrome, but for those few unfortunates, how it must rub salt in the wound to see people with DSDs being so cynically used to suit TRAs' agenda.

They aren’t actually using those conditions though, they just keep saying they are ‘intersex’ to suggest that they are some half way point. Which does not exists.

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 18:02

The starting point for defining knowledge (although obviously being philosophy there are problems) is a "justified true belief".

So Alice has womanly bits, she is a woman and she believes herself a woman = she knows she is a woman.

It isn't necessarily beyond reasonable doubt that's a legal term not one for day to day situations.

So someone in one context - being assigned a woman at birth - is justified in using women's toilets.

Another context - assigned a woman at birth - not necessarily justified in entering women's international boxing competitions without testing.

In some situations where the contrary would be really serious beyond reasonable doubt isn't high enough to be said to "know" something. I.e. you might need a 99.9999999999999999999999% confidence.

Not a lawyer disclaimer.

Justabaker · 17/07/2025 18:02

Talkinpeace · 17/07/2025 17:28

Has Naomi Cunningham been given the metadata from Upton's phone do we know ?

The request to exam the phone was not granted.

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 18:05

Justabaker · 17/07/2025 17:54

No, she is not. Not all good barristers. And not all KCs are good barristers.

Thanks, was surprised to see the acronym on the Boswelltoday account if this afternoon’s proceedings.

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 17/07/2025 18:07

Justabaker · 17/07/2025 18:02

The request to exam the phone was not granted.

Damn!

gruebleen · 17/07/2025 18:07

Justabaker · 17/07/2025 18:02

The request to exam the phone was not granted.

The order was not granted because Upton agreed to his phone being examined anyway.

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 17/07/2025 18:08

gruebleen · 17/07/2025 18:07

The order was not granted because Upton agreed to his phone being examined anyway.

I take back my disappointment 😂

Sazzasez · 17/07/2025 18:10

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 17/07/2025 16:19

SP was told in writing not to discuss the investigation

Is there a document where DU is told that the investigation is confidential?

On the contrary. His version was copied to all the consultants & half the Trust.

UpDo · 17/07/2025 18:11

Do we know yet when Dr Searle is on?

crazysnakess · 17/07/2025 18:13

Marieb19 · 17/07/2025 17:42

I beleive gametes and chromosomes are linked. I anyone who produces sperm has male chromosomes and anyone who menstruates / has given birth has female chromosomes. I'm pretty sure Upton knows he is a man.

The body is the proof of the chromosomes, because it cannot develop without them. We don't need chromosome testing and this simpering suggestion that we do is such a load of bollocks.

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 18:14

Sazzasez · 17/07/2025 18:10

On the contrary. His version was copied to all the consultants & half the Trust.

And although the head honcho of nursing today agreed that that was inappropriate, nothing was done to at the time to mitigate issues for Sandie.

I.e. send round a further email asking to ignore email and not discuss, that both sides need to be treated fairly and not prejudge outcomes etc.

Justabaker · 17/07/2025 18:14

gruebleen · 17/07/2025 18:07

The order was not granted because Upton agreed to his phone being examined anyway.

I'm not sure that's accurate but I can't say more than that.

Sazzasez · 17/07/2025 18:15

myplace · 17/07/2025 16:40

Beth Upton also gonna need a new name, along with Isla. His behaviour is so clearly intimidation. Might need a new profession, too. Perhaps as an NHS administrator of some kind.

He’s registered under both names on the GMC.

LarkLaneAgain · 17/07/2025 18:16

I wonder if the BMA advises all members with a grievance to submit a Datix, and email everyone they can think of, copying in their statement asking for corrections?
Or is it just the special ones?

PlasticAcrobat · 17/07/2025 18:19

It's an attempted 'gotcha': the 'biological' definition of sex requires DNA testing which most people haven't had, therefore people who adopt that as in important aspect of sex (us) can't reliably say we're female or male. The best we can do is say "I think I'm female" so we must be relying on our feelings, therefore we must allow other people to rely on their feelings too, including DU.

An additional problem with that attempted gotcha is that "I think I'm female" is not, in fact, a reliance on 'feelings'. Uncertainty does not equate to subjectivity. I might say "I think that 81 times 76 equals 6156". That wouldn't be a retreat into subjectivity; it would just be a rationalist, objectivist self-monitoring of my fallible ability to track objective truths. It doesn't at all endorse the idea of an infallible private sensation of femaleness.

HappierTimesAhead · 17/07/2025 18:20

Sazzasez · 17/07/2025 18:15

He’s registered under both names on the GMC.

As in, he appears twice as two different people? Isn't that, kind of, problematic?

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