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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28
Thread 29: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

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23
Hoardasurass · 17/07/2025 16:33

Gift token for the telegraph article on this shit show

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/c70085148e4f9de6

myplace · 17/07/2025 16:34

@waitwhat23 <hope I remembered the name right> could you do a poll, using heart and thumbs reactions for Scottish or not?

I’m not. I just think it’s relevant to everyone, but especially women. I wouldn’t like have an extra dose of fire in my belly if I were local and this was my immediate tax payer money and hospital.

ThatCyanCat · 17/07/2025 16:37

moto748e · 17/07/2025 16:28

It's an attempted 'gotcha': the 'biological' definition of sex requires DNA testing which most people haven't had, therefore people who adopt that as in important aspect of sex (us) can't reliably say we're female or male. The best we can do is say "I think I'm female" so we must be relying on our feelings, therefore we must allow other people to rely on their feelings too, including DU.

Surely, quite apart from anything else, if you menstruate, say, then you're a woman. Because no man can. So I don't see why Isla had her doubts. Or, to put it another way, she's talking bollocks.

They have immersed themselves in the lies for so long, they have forgotten how it looks to people not invested in maintaining said lies.

GreenFriedTomato · 17/07/2025 16:38

ImpPeril · 17/07/2025 16:31

@GreenFriedTomato my apologies, had misunderstood from previous posts that nurses weren't in band that high.

FWIIW I also believe that they are all lying, or at least protecting a very biased version of the truth less by JR. Also it isn't an excuse, integrity matters, I just have sympathy that she appears weak, trapped and institutionalised. Of the people I've 'listened to' through TT so far I don't believe that she believes in this.

I'm not sure if it's the same post you are referring to. But someone made the point that generally, nurses have to be very experienced to get the band 7/8 jobs, whereas people like Isla Bumba often walk into non-nursing band 8 roles with irrelevant qualifications and very little experience.

It usually takes years, starting at band 5, for a nurse to get to a band 7/8.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 16:39

Datun · 17/07/2025 16:23

To me, Upton asking if he should change his statement to people who would have no idea whether it was accurate or not, was tactical.

He was lording it, making out that all these people were either in a position to corroborate what he said, or blindly agree with his version.

Him asking shall I change it, and not getting the response how the hell should we know, we weren't there, was them being complicit. At least in his eyes. And mine too, to be honest.

He's just trying to lock them in.

Meanwhile, Sandie is told to shut the fuck up or else.

To me, the imbalance is so wrong, so bloody Medieval, I can't understand why it's not criminal.

Edited

In the UK, the terms ‘harassment’, ‘intimidation’ and ‘abuse’ are often used interchangeably as the experience for victims can overlap[1]. The Home Office and the Department of Health Guidance on Developing and Implementing Multi-agency Policies and Procedures to Protect Vulnerable Adults from Abuse define abuse as a single act or repeated physical, verbal or psychological acts that violate an individual’s human and civil rights. Some cases of abuse constitute criminal offences. For example, physical, psychological or sexual assault, theft, fraud and gender and racial discrimination.

The Protection from Harassment Act 1997 indicates that someone’s actions amount to harassment when they make the victim feel distressed, humiliated, threatened or fearful of further violence. The main goal of harassment is to persuade victims either not to do something that they are entitled or required to do or to do something that they are not obliged to do. Actions listed under the Protection from Harassment Act include, but are not limited to:

phone calls
letters
emails
visits
stalking
verbal abuse of any kind, including on social media
threats
damage to property
bodily harm[2].
Such actions amount to harassment when they occur more than once.

https://www.local.gov.uk/definition-harassment-abuse-and-intimidation

My bold.

Upton tried to intimidate Peggie by enlisting the support of others in front of her in order to make her feel powerless. He used his higher rank in work to close ranks over her.

This is why this part is significant - it shows an example of harassment as defined in law. NC has to prove this happened on at least two occasions for a harassment claim to succeed.

myplace · 17/07/2025 16:40

Beth Upton also gonna need a new name, along with Isla. His behaviour is so clearly intimidation. Might need a new profession, too. Perhaps as an NHS administrator of some kind.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 16:40

So Datun, I argue it IS an example of criminal behaviour.

Greyskybluesky · 17/07/2025 16:41

Scottish Daily Express telling it like it is!

"NHS Fife accused Sandie Peggie of 'serious misconduct' just because she complained about a man using female changing rooms"

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/nhs-fife-accused-sandie-peggie-35572765

prh47bridge · 17/07/2025 16:42

MyAmpleSheep · 17/07/2025 16:22

@prh47bridge wrote this at the end of the last thread, and I thought it was interesting to respond to:

I really don't get this idea of TRAs saying that they don't know what sex they are because they haven't tested their chromosomes. They must know that a test of Upton's chromosomes would show he is male, which doesn't fit their argument. If chromosomes determine sex (which they do for everyone apart from the small minority with DSD), their fantasy fails.

I think the argument they would make is that by 'your' (The SC's) definition of sex, I can't be sure, because I haven't had my chromosomes tested. But by 'my' definition of sex, I am a woman and so is DU.

It's an attempted 'gotcha': the 'biological' definition of sex requires DNA testing which most people haven't had, therefore people who adopt that as in important aspect of sex (us) can't reliably say we're female or male. The best we can do is say "I think I'm female" so we must be relying on our feelings, therefore we must allow other people to rely on their feelings too, including DU.

If that is the intention, I think it is incredibly stupid. For the vast majority of humans, you can tell what chromosomes they've got simply by looking at their genitals (which, of course, is what happens when a baby is born - we observe and record sex, we don't "assign" it). That holds true for everyone who hasn't got DSD and the majority of those who do. There are very few people with ambiguous genitals or genitals that do not match their chromosomes. I abhor the attempts by TRAs to use people with DSDs to advance their cause.

But then the whole thing is jaw droppingly stupid. I cannot fathom how a grown woman who has given birth can convince herself that she doesn't know what sex she is.

Whilst I am sure that the judge should find for SP, we can never be certain until the judgement comes out. I haven't been watching but, reading some of the testimony, if I were the judge I would be finding it very hard to maintain the appearance that I had not decided anything. I would be seriously wishing I could fine Fife £1k for every minute I had to listen to this nonsense.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 17/07/2025 16:42

GreenFriedTomato · 17/07/2025 16:22

Tomorrow's witnesses are Dr. Pitt and Louise Curran

I'm confused I thought we were only getting 1 more witness after GM

Apocalypselastyear · 17/07/2025 16:44

Delurking to place mark

Merrymouse · 17/07/2025 16:47

MyAmpleSheep · 17/07/2025 16:22

@prh47bridge wrote this at the end of the last thread, and I thought it was interesting to respond to:

I really don't get this idea of TRAs saying that they don't know what sex they are because they haven't tested their chromosomes. They must know that a test of Upton's chromosomes would show he is male, which doesn't fit their argument. If chromosomes determine sex (which they do for everyone apart from the small minority with DSD), their fantasy fails.

I think the argument they would make is that by 'your' (The SC's) definition of sex, I can't be sure, because I haven't had my chromosomes tested. But by 'my' definition of sex, I am a woman and so is DU.

It's an attempted 'gotcha': the 'biological' definition of sex requires DNA testing which most people haven't had, therefore people who adopt that as in important aspect of sex (us) can't reliably say we're female or male. The best we can do is say "I think I'm female" so we must be relying on our feelings, therefore we must allow other people to rely on their feelings too, including DU.

I think it suggests that they think that sex has no material impact and therefore the only way you could possibly determine your sex is through a chromosome test.

Which isn't great from somebody who is paid to understand the implications of equality law.

GreenFriedTomato · 17/07/2025 16:47

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 17/07/2025 16:42

I'm confused I thought we were only getting 1 more witness after GM

I'm not sure who is left but the tribunal is supposed to last another 9 days

OhBuggerandArse · 17/07/2025 16:47

NebulousDog · 17/07/2025 16:29

GM No, don't think DU did harass. Unprofessional behaviour on part of SP.
J Dr Pitt tomorrow and Louise Curran.
J Do we need to call [missed] just to say we have taken his evidence - their evidence I should say to be more accurate.
J Normal time tomorrow.

No Vic Valentine?!

Have we encountered Dr Elspeth Pitt before? She is listed as "Wellbeing & peer support lead; FRCEM Examiner" on the Fife website.

I bet these Drs are delighted to be hauled up in front of an ET.

Vic Valentine was the his/their

MagicSexEssence · 17/07/2025 16:48

Merrymouse · 17/07/2025 16:37

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g2xz2wwwwo

I know this was mentioned on previous thread, but this is an odd headline given that Peggie has been cleared.

The BBC are just awful. I complained to them about the headlines re "banning trans athletes" when they'd reported on the University of Pennsylvania no longer allowing TIMs to compete in women's sport. They replied:

"We are conscious of the need for headlines to be worded carefully so as not to mislead readers or give the wrong impression about a story...Headlines are short summaries of stories and despite our best endeavours it is simply not always possible to sum up all the various aspects of a story within the space of a single headline."

Totally change the story...not sum up all aspects of the story...potato potato.

As to this tribunal I can't see how SP could possibly lose and I hope this case will be a watershed moment so everyone knows that it is not discriminatory to complain.

I am not Scottish, I don't even live in the UK.

CriticalCondition · 17/07/2025 16:48

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 17/07/2025 16:42

I'm confused I thought we were only getting 1 more witness after GM

Yes, the judge definitely said the first witness was going to be excused appearing in person on the grounds that nobody had any questions for them and their statements would be taken as read. But 'Elspeth' doesn't really square with 'he' and 'they'. Or maybe it does. Confusing.

anyolddinosaur · 17/07/2025 16:49

I'm getting very confused by the line management structure in NHS Fife - if they have any structure at all - and over just how many "Directors of nursing" they have. At times it seems like everyone apart from poor Sandie is a director of something or the other.

So - is there an organisation chart anywhere? Or even a simple statement of who people report to? And how can you have a Director of Nursing with no direct reports?

And chromosomes determine sex for most people with dsd too. There are a very tiny number of dsds where there is any ambiguity.

Waitwhat23 · 17/07/2025 16:49

@ohbuggerandarse made a good point on the last thread about Vic Valentine. Given the complete overreach and influence that the organisation Scottish Trans have had on Scottish institutions, including the Scottish Prison Service and (I'm assuming) NHS Scotland and given Vic has been mentioned during these proceedings as a witness, presumably as a 'ooh, the nasty bigot got what was coming to her' type of talking head, then surely Vic is still going to be included in these proceedings?

Because I'd bet my last packet of biscuits on the 'advice' NHS Fife have used coming straight from Vic.

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 17/07/2025 16:49

Lovely work by Naomi today exposing the many double standards and inconsistencies ever present in these cases.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 17/07/2025 16:49

MyAmpleSheep · 17/07/2025 16:22

@prh47bridge wrote this at the end of the last thread, and I thought it was interesting to respond to:

I really don't get this idea of TRAs saying that they don't know what sex they are because they haven't tested their chromosomes. They must know that a test of Upton's chromosomes would show he is male, which doesn't fit their argument. If chromosomes determine sex (which they do for everyone apart from the small minority with DSD), their fantasy fails.

I think the argument they would make is that by 'your' (The SC's) definition of sex, I can't be sure, because I haven't had my chromosomes tested. But by 'my' definition of sex, I am a woman and so is DU.

It's an attempted 'gotcha': the 'biological' definition of sex requires DNA testing which most people haven't had, therefore people who adopt that as in important aspect of sex (us) can't reliably say we're female or male. The best we can do is say "I think I'm female" so we must be relying on our feelings, therefore we must allow other people to rely on their feelings too, including DU.

The gotcha fails because we all know what sex we were born because it's recorded at the time on our birth certificate.. There is only need to do a chromosome test if it's ambivalent because of a DSD. If birth sex is unclear then a chromosome test will be performed but the result will be returned long before the birth needs to be registered at six weeks after birth.

Someone born in the UK who claims not to know their sex is lying.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 16:50

GreenFriedTomato · 17/07/2025 16:47

I'm not sure who is left but the tribunal is supposed to last another 9 days

Well we've got some summing up from both parties to go.

I suspect NC will need some time for this.

The defence will have a lot of waffling to do to try and salvage something from this.

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 16:52

GM No, don't think DU did harass. Unprofessional behaviour on part of SP.

Very bold statement from the person with such poor recall. Who didn’t read letters attached to emails she was sent but instead just forwarded them. The person who cannot recall reading a RA but is certain the decision to suspend was correct. The person who was not involved in any part of the investigation.

But she’s happy to state in a tribunal that Sandie acted in an unprofessional way…. just from the details of a DATIX that was anything but impartial.

This is also the person whose role involved nurse welfare?

She should be ashamed of herself.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 16:52

anyolddinosaur · 17/07/2025 16:49

I'm getting very confused by the line management structure in NHS Fife - if they have any structure at all - and over just how many "Directors of nursing" they have. At times it seems like everyone apart from poor Sandie is a director of something or the other.

So - is there an organisation chart anywhere? Or even a simple statement of who people report to? And how can you have a Director of Nursing with no direct reports?

And chromosomes determine sex for most people with dsd too. There are a very tiny number of dsds where there is any ambiguity.

I'll enlighten you.

There isn't any.

And they made it up as they went along, shoving it between departments with no overall oversight.

And therein lies the point.

oldwomanwhoruns · 17/07/2025 16:53

So - we're to see a real doctor tomorrow, are we? Will this doctor have any more guts that those two flailing nurses, we wonder? I do so hope that our Naomi will test the depths of her medical knowledge with testing questions such as - How many sexes are there? Can mammals change sex? Is a castrated male a female? ... and so on.

Actually, it's really starting to bug me that most of the actors in this unlikely drama (besides the fragrant Beth) are women. I know that on X people so like to say that it's mainly women who go along with the batshittery of Genderwoo. But I don't like to see this played out for real. Can't some women in Fife (apart from Naomi and Peggie) grow a backbone, please?

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