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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28
Thread 29: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

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Waitwhat23 · 17/07/2025 17:11

NebulousDog · 17/07/2025 17:05

Taken from AdvanceHE website (whatever that might be):
Vic Valentine is the Policy Officer at the Scottish Trans Alliance, Scotland’s national project working to improve trans equality and human rights. They are a non-binary activist who leads on Scottish Trans Alliance’s work with the gender based violence sector. They have been involved in trans/feminist activism and campaigning for several years, and are passionate about building a trans equality movement that is underpinned by feminist principles.

Perhaps they advise all the DEI officers in NHS Scotland

Going off the Scottish Trans website, Vic is now Manager having taken over from James Morton (of the self id in prisons quote).

Their website also lists this position within the organisation which I will add without comment. I've redacted the name to be fair.

'Scottish Trans is also currently hosting a fourth full time member of staff, as part of the Scottish Government’s NHS Gender Identity Services Strategic Action Framework 2021-2024:

Lived Experience Coordinator'

(Edited to sort out formatting)

moto748e · 17/07/2025 17:12

anyolddinosaur · 17/07/2025 16:49

I'm getting very confused by the line management structure in NHS Fife - if they have any structure at all - and over just how many "Directors of nursing" they have. At times it seems like everyone apart from poor Sandie is a director of something or the other.

So - is there an organisation chart anywhere? Or even a simple statement of who people report to? And how can you have a Director of Nursing with no direct reports?

And chromosomes determine sex for most people with dsd too. There are a very tiny number of dsds where there is any ambiguity.

It seems like, the more chiefs you have, the more you can spread the responsibilities around, until no-one is taking them. Another feature, not a bug?

Binglebong · 17/07/2025 17:14

Finally caught up - started at 2pm!

Massive thanks to everyone who contributes to these pages. I always learn so much - and laugh so much! I am genuinely amazed at the level of deliberate incompetence being displayed here. It sickens me.

Once this is over how long will it take the judge to make a ruling? I mean he probably knows now but if he has to list everythingvthsts wrong it could take some time...

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 17:17

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/40/section/8

8Harassment.
(1)Every individual has a right to be free from harassment and, accordingly, a person must not pursue a course of conduct which amounts to harassment of another and—

(a)is intended to amount to harassment of that person; or

(b)occurs in circumstances where it would appear to a reasonable person that it would amount to harassment of that person.

[F1(1A)Subsection (1) is subject to section 8A.]

(2)An actual or apprehended breach of subsection (1) may be the subject of a claim in civil proceedings by the person who is or may be the victim of the course of conduct in question; and any such claim shall be known as an action of harassment.

(3)For the purposes of this section—

“conduct” includes speech;
“harassment” of a person includes causing the person alarm or distress; and
a course of conduct must involve conduct on at least two occasions.
(4)It shall be a defence to any action of harassment to show that the course of conduct complained of—

(a)was authorised by, under or by virtue of any enactment or rule of law;

(b)was pursued for the purpose of preventing or detecting crime; or

(c)was, in the particular circumstances, reasonable.

(5)In an action of harassment the court may, without prejudice to any other remedies which it may grant—

(a)award damages;

(b)grant—

(i)interdict or interim interdict;

(ii)if it is satisfied that it is appropriate for it to do so in order to protect the person from further harassment, an order, to be known as a “non-harassment order”, requiring the defender to refrain from such conduct in relation to the pursuer as may be specified in the order for such period (which includes an indeterminate period) as may be so specified,

but a person may not be subjected to the same prohibitions in an interdict or interim interdict and a non-harassment order at the same time.
(6)The damages which may be awarded in an action of harassment include damages for any anxiety caused by the harassment and any financial loss resulting from it.

(7)Without prejudice to any right to seek review of any interlocutor, a person against whom a non-harassment order has been made, or the person for whose protection the order was made, may apply to the court by which the order was made for revocation of or a variation of the order and, on any such application, the court may revoke the order or vary it in such manner as it considers appropriate.

Sandie was accused of harassing Upton. However we have three things that NC has sought to demonstrate here

  1. she acted within the law to uphold her rights
  2. that it was reasonable under the circumstances with which she was presented - remember there was no written policy, she'd gone to her line manager, she'd challenged as was per her right as a woman under the Equality Act. She was limited in her recourse avenues.
  3. Upton used authority and the NHS organisation to further his intimidation and harassment of Peggie.

Upton has admitted that there was no way she could acted any other way which he would consider reasonable. He tried to prevent her from complaining, when she refused to use the changing room at the same time as him (which she's legally allowed to in these circumstances) and then he was CC her in to group mails to intimidate her and prevent her from challenging him.

Malone has admitted there are such systematic flaws it was impossible for Sandie to uphold her rights or even advocate for herself without being punished for it. In deeming Sandie 'unprofessional' she shows clear bias and lack of understanding of proper procedures.

Protection from Harassment Act 1997

An Act to make provision for protecting persons from harassment and similar conduct.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/40/section/8

Longlivethebling · 17/07/2025 17:20

https://x.com/RobbieTravers/status/1945876575213248836?t=zq2NXsl3ifyyYNvHo9qfew&s=19

"To explain, the overspill room erupted into spontaneous applause the moment that the “Pete” line of questioning finished… this was heard in the building."

https://x.com/RobbieTravers/status/1945876575213248836?s=19&t=zq2NXsl3ifyyYNvHo9qfew

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 17:21

@prh47bridge I have seen some of these arguments on social media including from those who have studied science. They are invalid for plenty of reasons. Best attempt to set out:

  1. There exist DSDs where someone believes themselves to be female based on i.e. external anatomy at birth (okay)
  2. After testing chromosomes those who appear to be "female" may turn out to be male XY with a DSD (also okay)

Conclusion - Given the above, unless you have had your chromosomes tested you cannot know your biological sex i.e. any woman may be a man. (Invalid from (1) and (2)).

Various issues, probably more than below as this is just from glancing at it and thinking it's batshit.

  • You don't have to rule out every single alternative possibility to "know" something otherwise knowing anything would be impossible. DSDs without signs are extremely rare. Gone through womanly events - you can know you are a woman.
  • Concepts generally have a grey area and it's a grey area whether someone in 2) is not female i.e.There was a seemingly unique case of someone with XY chromosomes who seems female giving birth. They are still arguably a woman in day to day contexts i.e. like which changing room to use.
RayonSunrise · 17/07/2025 17:21

Another stonking day of evidence. I feel like I need a gin now, and I wasn’t even the person trying to excuse a complete lack of disciplinary procedure to a barrister!

Jerseycreamtea · 17/07/2025 17:24

Blimey! I’m trying to catch up after a day at work! It’s moving so fast. Thanks for the updates

Jerseycreamtea · 17/07/2025 17:24

Blimey! I’m trying to catch up after a day at work! It’s moving so fast. Thanks for the updates

Talkinpeace · 17/07/2025 17:28

Has Naomi Cunningham been given the metadata from Upton's phone do we know ?

Marieb19 · 17/07/2025 17:31

Naomi Cunningham deserves a peerage. I hope Upton, the Execs and Board of NHS Fife lose their jobs. Uptons trumped up allegation and NHS Fife's deceit, bullying and Kafkaesque processes are evil.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 17/07/2025 17:31

CriticalCondition · 17/07/2025 16:29

Who is being excused tomorrow and their evidence being taken as read? Is it Dr Elspeth Pitt as appeared on the previous thread? I didn't catch the name but the judge referred first to 'his' and then corrected himself to 'their'.

Does that line up with what we know of 'Elspeth'? And what was their role in all of this? I recall there were a couple of walk-on parts where people comforted/escorted Upton across a carpark but can't remember if either of them was EP. And I don't recall having the impression EP was male.

Was she one of the people involved when Dr U put his big girl pants on but ran around the department in distress again on the next day back after the Christmas BHs?

Here she is on Twitter, that must have put a downer on reading her husband's new book on Christianity. https://x.com/elspeth_pitt/status/1740331399599530289

https://x.com/elspeth_pitt/status/1740331399599530289

ThatCyanCat · 17/07/2025 17:31

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 17:21

@prh47bridge I have seen some of these arguments on social media including from those who have studied science. They are invalid for plenty of reasons. Best attempt to set out:

  1. There exist DSDs where someone believes themselves to be female based on i.e. external anatomy at birth (okay)
  2. After testing chromosomes those who appear to be "female" may turn out to be male XY with a DSD (also okay)

Conclusion - Given the above, unless you have had your chromosomes tested you cannot know your biological sex i.e. any woman may be a man. (Invalid from (1) and (2)).

Various issues, probably more than below as this is just from glancing at it and thinking it's batshit.

  • You don't have to rule out every single alternative possibility to "know" something otherwise knowing anything would be impossible. DSDs without signs are extremely rare. Gone through womanly events - you can know you are a woman.
  • Concepts generally have a grey area and it's a grey area whether someone in 2) is not female i.e.There was a seemingly unique case of someone with XY chromosomes who seems female giving birth. They are still arguably a woman in day to day contexts i.e. like which changing room to use.
Edited

Chromosomes dictate sex but they don't define it. Your biological sex is defined by whether your body is formed around the production of small gametes (male) or large gametes (female).

Chromosomes make that process happen. In well over 99% of cases, XY is male and XX female. However, there are some DSDs that are exceptions. For example, it is possible to have an XXY karyotype - Klinefelter syndrome, which affects only men. Swyer syndrome, where a Y chromosome doesn't not work, leads to a female body without fully formed ovaries (gonadal smears). The woman with Swyer's has a body formed around producing large gametes, even if she isn't capable of producing them.

The karyotype dictated the sex but isn't what we ook at to define it, precisely because of cases like these. Your chromosomes are your karytoype, not your sex.

Now it's perhaps possible that Bumba has a DSD she doesn't know about, although it's vanishingly unlikely if she's reached adulthood with no signs of one. She is, however, definitely female.

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 17:33

Given how much longer this is going to go on for I wonder if Fife will have dug their way to Australia by the end of this tribunal! The hole just keeps getting deeper and today certainly didn't help.

Chrysanthemum5 · 17/07/2025 17:38

Talkinpeace · 17/07/2025 17:28

Has Naomi Cunningham been given the metadata from Upton's phone do we know ?

I thought Upton had agreed to his phone being checked so there was no need for the tribunal to order it

OhBuggerandArse · 17/07/2025 17:39

Chrysanthemum5 · 17/07/2025 17:38

I thought Upton had agreed to his phone being checked so there was no need for the tribunal to order it

When might we find out if he will be recalled to discuss what they find?

murasaki · 17/07/2025 17:39

I think he agreed re the phone, when will it come into play?

Marieb19 · 17/07/2025 17:42

MyAmpleSheep · 17/07/2025 16:22

@prh47bridge wrote this at the end of the last thread, and I thought it was interesting to respond to:

I really don't get this idea of TRAs saying that they don't know what sex they are because they haven't tested their chromosomes. They must know that a test of Upton's chromosomes would show he is male, which doesn't fit their argument. If chromosomes determine sex (which they do for everyone apart from the small minority with DSD), their fantasy fails.

I think the argument they would make is that by 'your' (The SC's) definition of sex, I can't be sure, because I haven't had my chromosomes tested. But by 'my' definition of sex, I am a woman and so is DU.

It's an attempted 'gotcha': the 'biological' definition of sex requires DNA testing which most people haven't had, therefore people who adopt that as in important aspect of sex (us) can't reliably say we're female or male. The best we can do is say "I think I'm female" so we must be relying on our feelings, therefore we must allow other people to rely on their feelings too, including DU.

I beleive gametes and chromosomes are linked. I anyone who produces sperm has male chromosomes and anyone who menstruates / has given birth has female chromosomes. I'm pretty sure Upton knows he is a man.

anyolddinosaur · 17/07/2025 17:42

Sweyer syndrome is possibly the only dsd where sex is debatable. It's estimated at 1 in 80,000 births.

The majority of women have periods, even if they may be infrequent, before they reach Isla's age. Men dont have periods. Those women who dont have periods would be seeing a doctor and unless their brains are as addled as Upton's the doctor can tell you what sex you are.

Quite a few women give birth - still supposed to pretend they dont know what sex they are?

maltravers · 17/07/2025 17:44

HappierTimesAhead · 17/07/2025 16:21

As an aside, I believe there are a lot of doctors (I know some) who think the whole TWAW is bullshit because, you know, 'biology' is kind of the name of the game in medicine. So, there will have been doctors cc'd into that email thinking this is bullshit but it didn't lead them to actually do something about it, to defend Sandie.

No volunteers to go to the stake with Goody Peggie? I imagine the sex realists/GCs weren’t overly keen on attracting the attention of the witchfinders. Seeing as you get suspended, isolated and labelled a nasty bigot.

moto748e · 17/07/2025 17:46

It's pretty bad luck to be born with such a rare condition as Sweyer syndrome, but for those few unfortunates, how it must rub salt in the wound to see people with DSDs being so cynically used to suit TRAs' agenda.

moto748e · 17/07/2025 17:48

maltravers · 17/07/2025 17:44

No volunteers to go to the stake with Goody Peggie? I imagine the sex realists/GCs weren’t overly keen on attracting the attention of the witchfinders. Seeing as you get suspended, isolated and labelled a nasty bigot.

Of course, that wouldn't be so likely if you had proper support from line management. But no chance of that in the NHS, it seems.

anyolddinosaur · 17/07/2025 17:51

Someone said earlier they begin to wonder if anyone can do their job properly. It appears that Sandie did. She may have had some political views her colleagues didnt like but the worst they could say about her career was that she expected high standards from the staff and a few (the incompetents?) complained.

Never been a fan of management consultants but I'd like to send a few into Fife to make it crystal clear what people are responsible for and how they should document what they do. Of course that appears to be partly what today's witness was supposed to be responsible for, although in conjunction with others, since she had responsibility for training, audit and standards.

Brainworm · 17/07/2025 17:52

NebulousDog · 17/07/2025 16:32

Any idea how much it costs to process a sex test/cheek swab thingy? £50?

It would have saved NHS Fife a lot of time and expense if they'd just asked all their staff needing to use changing rooms to do a supervised test.

It would be a waste of resources. If someone has been through puberty and had developed as expected - there is no reason to doubt that they are not within the 99.98% of people who have XX or XY chromosomes.

As Doc Stock pointed out this morning. How does IB know she has a brain as this is no more known to her than her chromosomes!

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