NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #9

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8

Does anyone know if the SC FWS case determination came back in women's favour before the judges made their decision on this case would it potentially affect the outcome?

Speed-walking the dog.

Back for 2:00.

I hope his employer is paying attention and running scenarios around getting rid of delusional staff members.

How can he function as a doctor if biological facts are up for grabs?

he's radio rental

Before birth in a lot of cases.

Place marking

Upton knows damn well who is female and who is male and the biological difference between them otherwise as a doctor Upton risks misdiagnosis and killing patients.

Just one very basic example that Upton would have seen many many times.

Well, I'm nearly blind by all the sunlight from operation let them speak.

How about everyone else?

It's the playing about with language in a way that makes them feel terribly clever. He self-describes as female. How can he possibly be male? (tinkly laugh). He wants to use the female changing room, and that's for females, ergo his desire to be in there makes him female.

Everyone int that room, including Upton, knows that Upton is male, and the more he denies it, the more ridiculous it looks. These arguments are batshit enough on twitter. But in IRL? It's foolish, and you run the risk of looking a bit immature by making them.

Which is why JR chimed in when she did.

Every time

I recommend trying to get a link for a live watch/listen - the commentary on here is epic (once again huge thanks to all who transcribe and pass on the proceedings) but hearing it IRT is next level in terms of how utterly jaw dropping it is.

And then he wonders why people laugh and cat call him.

The judge knows who Beyoncé is. Gotta be worth a mention!

Pete the Plumber need to up his insurance as he could transition mid job.

If Upton is female then the word "female" has no meaning.
I wish NC would ask for his definition of "female".

This has been the toughest watch yet of all these cases. He is an entitled arse, but I think he is doing really well in facing NCs questioning. He is also clearly very clever, more so than some of the legal professionals I have seen on the opposite team over the years.

My big worry here is that because this line of questioning, although vital, could be interpreted as willfully cruel by the panel. And this could go in Dr U's favour.

But then again, will the panel endorse a world where men can say they not only identify as women, and want to be treated as women, but are actually biologically female, just via the magical power of believing it to be so.

At least his adherence to the I am a Woman position shows how extreme he is in his beliefs.

NC said that expecting people to see trans women is women is akin to Wilson and his torturer both agreeing that 4 fingers are being held up (when in fact they are 5).

(Paraphrasing)

Upton didn't get a chance to answer before JR jumped in.

I feel terrible, this isn't going to be fixed or go away. It's going to be endless court fights forever. It's all very hopeless really.

It's taken a generation of everything, including basic rights to privacy to be thrown away.

Whoop! Whoop! I'm in for the afternoon!

I'd love NC to ask him about something medical that's sex based and dangerous if you give one sex's treatment to the opposite sex

Thank you. NC is quite right of course.

On the one hand he’s a woman because he identifies as a transwoman, on the other he’s a transwoman and they happen to be different from (cis) women as they’re assigned male sex at birth. 🤔🤔🤔

A PP on the previous thread said that, unlike DrU and his team of supporters, SP had faced this alone.

I'm reminded of JK Rowling's reply to a tweet that sarcastically asked if she felt lonely up there on her high horse, she replied:
'Gosh no, I've got several million women sitting beside me.'

I hope SP feels something similar, maybe not in the millions, but to use an Irish expression, 'That Naomi Cunningham is some woman for one woman' so she probably counts as about 250,000😄

When I was pregnant and in maternity hospital with DS1, a midwife spent ages dangling a wedding ring over me, then told me I was having a girl. I didn't have the heart to tell her I had had a scan and already knew it was a boy. But I was quite disturbed when I realised she wasn't having a bit of fun. She genuinely believed in what she was doing

I tried but couldn’t manage it.
I did laptop, observer, got a grey screen with a chat box down the side.

Any tips I missed?