NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #9

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8

In Scotland but a long time ago, I got a scrappy bit of paper that specified the sex, weight etc. of my baby, which was taken along to register the birth. Definitely didn't have to have a doctor's anything, a midwife would do. There are people who have unaccompanied home births, so the paper can't be obligatory, but I could believe it might cause some hassle not to have it. I think I've read that in that case you make sure to take the baby with you to register the birth, but I think the point is to prove that there is a baby. Whether anyone checks the sex, I don't know.

How does he know if someone coming to A&E needs a pregnancy test?
How does he know if there's a possibility of ectopic pregnancy or ovarian torsion?
Ruptured ovarian cyst?
How does he know which catheter to use?

I could go on, but you get the point.

@frenchnoodle There is hope and we are now in a vastly different world to even 3 years ago. It will get better.

Tests will be done to decide whether the individual is best brought up as a male or a female. There is no one test which is definitive, not XY chromosomes for instance. DSDs are not an excuse for transsexual activism, but is best to acknowledge that they exist and can be ambiguous.

There are currently 3 of these cases in the pipeline against the NHS. I think they will need to adjust their policy eventually. It appears that allowing men to choose which changing rooms they use goes against the Workplace Regs. it's going to get very expensive for them to keep fighting on a case by case basis. Also it's awfully bad for their reputation. I wonder if we can expect at least one of these cases to go up to the SC if the NHS doesn't sort things out?

Fucking madness. Can’t believe what I’ve heard come out of that man’s mouth today. Biological woman. Bullshit.

I’m off to have a shower while they’re at lunch.

Whilst i'm annoyed the judge wouldn't allow the 1984 comparison - because it's exactly analogous except fictional so no-one really harmed- I bet DU's really frustrated he doesn't get to endlessly pontificate about why Winston's a bigot and possibly why the whole of 1984 is bigoted.

And yet, here we are treading the same ground we have already been across in yet another court case.

pragmatic tactics on her part.

No, that observation is normally made by the midwife attending the birth. Many healthy babies are not seen by a doctor at all between birth and registration.

I've never known a real life instance in which the parent and the attending practitioner have disagreed about the sex of the baby. If it's not immediately obvious, the baby would have appropriate investigations done rather than guesswork or the flip of a coin.

My big worry here is that because this line of questioning, although vital, could be interpreted as willfully cruel by the panel. And this could go in Dr U's favour.

It could only be seen as cruel if you believe men must be pandered to. JR was far harsher to SP. Also JR did not suffer interruptions from NC.

Fuck - Ing Hell
😳 > everyone at the tribunal’s face.

Interesting to note his bullish certainty and demeanor today and consider if this is the same delicate flower who had to have 2 months off in case he ran into SP.

It really does feel like groundhog day. Either women get sex based rights in this country or they don't. All this pontificating over the meaning of words that 99% of the population are in agreement over. Pure sexism.

Rome wasn't built in a day. This ideology has been a long time in the making. It will take quite a while to get it out of our institutions, but I think it will happen.

Exactly.

And an answer isn't going to come from the government any time soon.

Yes. This was the thrust of FWS case at the SC wasn't it? It's honestly incredible that we are having to fight this nonsense in 2025.

I’m so cross. I arranged to be able to watch live and then a child puked in the night so I’m just trying to keep up via TT and here while my now perfectly healthy 5 year old bounces manically about. Bloody 48 hour rule.

No. You oddly need very little evidence of anything. You just inform the registrar of the date, name, sex, parents' details etc. It's an offence to lie though. And almost impossible to change afterwards. You get cases of sleep deprived parents getting the sex wrong and then not being able to correct it.

In DUs world a female with XX chromosomes and functioning ovaries, uterus and vagina could be a trans woman, as long as that person was assigned male at birth.

We've got #1 and #5 in Trending.

We are beginning to see here just how important it has been for the judge to tell NC she could call him a man in court.

This!!!

though I expect he would say “someone who identifies as female”

All births are recorded by a medical professional if they were present.

Sex is observed it is not assigned.

🎯