NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

There’s quite a double standard going on here which I often find elsewhere too. We are drawing from all sorts of unreliable sources here — lots of Twitter comments, different inexpert viewpoints, material without citations etc — and we are trusted to take what it contains with a pinch of salt because we are (mostly 😂) intelligent critical thinkers but when someone uses GenAI as a tool that trust in our abilities to be cautious with it in the same way we are cautious with other sources, even ourselves, vanishes.

I do get why, of course, because in other situations it is being treated as reliable instead of unreliable but this thread is almost wholly made up of the unreliable so I don’t think we need the claxon.

Yep! Now NC us showing JRs objection was wrong by directly asking the witness whether she found it confusing NC is using male pronouns for DU.

In fairness, I know that when I talk about someone who prefers wrong-sex pronouns, with someone who uses those pronouns, I end up accidentally using them too. So it's just not the case that the misgendering necessarily indicates that the witnesses see BU as male. It's at least partly just that conversations where participants use different pronouns for the same person are tricky. I'm with the witness on this point.

Quick question. Are the stenographers doing their magic during the private bits? Are these then allowed to be published?

from herald
2:12pm
Judge Sandy Kemp has said Ms Cunningham should continue her cross examination.
The barrister asks Ms Glancey that if Ms Peggie was punished because she was guilty of 'heresy' by not believing that Dr Upton is a woman.
"I disagree," said Ms Glancey.

from herald
2:14pm
Ms Cunningham asks whether Ms Glancey is distressed or upset by Ms Cunningham's use of he/him pronouns.
She is not upset, she said but said she has accidentally misgendered Dr Upton as a result a few times.
Ms Cunningham suggests that Ms Glancey has trained herself to call Dr Upton by female pronouns. She disagreed.

How can you be treated fairly as GC if your organisation (especially public sector ones who are required to be neutral) insist you go against your legal beliefs and use preferred pronouns?

The organisation by default shows bias.

This is a crucial factor in the case - especially in the context of the police court ruling last week and the Porton Down ruling. Never mind the one about witnesses and sex offenders keeping in mind one of the claims here is sexual harassment.

JR effectively opens this to debate in an act of shooting herself in the foot and allowing NC a platform in court on this matter she wouldn't otherwise have had.

Another 'outwith'?

NC has been reminded by JR to #BeKind

Continuation thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41

Strange answer to a yes or no question.

NC: "Trained yourself into the habit" ( of using 'correct' pronouns)

Pete

Witness tying herself in knots to explain misgendering DU

Manly man 😂

Oh hello Pete 👋

Pete has entered the room.

PETE

NC deffo playing to the gallery now. 😁

PETE is in the court.

Apologies for GenAI debate derailment. I’ll shut up now!

I’ll tell you what it is good for and is the only way I currently use it, is if you are sending inherently complicated written communication (like solicitors advice) to a vulnerable person perhaps with low literacy or learning difficulties limited English or that you hope will be read by an older child. You write it simply then feed it in to chatGpT and ask it to put it into language to be understood by an 8 year old, or by someone with a B2 level of English, and it does a really great job. Obviously you need to read it through v carefully and it always gets the wrong end of the stick a bit, but it’s really good.

I mean Go away Pete!

Bye Pete that was a quick visit

Pete!! 🍷🛀🍸🚽🍻🚽