NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

So JR has been not very nice in the private sessions.

JR gets antsy
About the use of pronouns.
NC shrugs, says no.

I literally just had some 🍿I should have saved it.

Looks like NC is doubling down.

That's an interesting observation ... would you elaborate?

Oh to be a fly on the wall in private hearings!

Oooh. NC firmly standing her ground now. And it would appear that JR has attacked her character during private sessions. Go Naomi

This is very strong from NC here.

Oh to have been a fly on the wall for the private discussions!!

And the time wasting!

from herald
2:04pm
We are back.
Ms Cunningham has said she is "quite concerned" about the "asymmetry" or different treatment of counsels of two parties.
"I have not at anytime in these proceedings engaged in any attacks on Ms Russell's professionalism."
She said her use of language was justified.
She also makes clear she absolutely did not accuse Ms Russell 'of heresy'.
She said Ms Peggie's case revolves around the idea she has been treated as a heretic by not paying "lip service" to the gender identity belief system.
By definition, a heretic is a person holding opinions at odds with what is generally accepted.

The whole reason there is this tribunal in the first place is because nobody is supposed to acknowledge that DU is a man......even when he is and it is perfectly obvious to everyone that he is. If his maleness is acknowledged then it gives more credence to SP's complaint...and that cannot be allowed.

SP was suspended because she wouldn't go along with the creed that insists that DU is a woman....and a special kind of woman at that; one whose rights and feelings over-rule and over-ride everyone else's.

Thee have bent over backwards to allow him to frame and shape his own case against SP... and all of this goes against normal procedure.

Yep!

Go Naomi

<rustles pompoms>

Snap! 😂

I've said this before.

Nod your head and say yes. Then shake your head and say no.

Then nod your head and say no. Then shake your head and say yes.

Repeat three or four times for each. One is easy. The other is not.

It shows what is ingrained into us and we understand on a different level. The other is unnatural and difficult to do.

It is impossible to keep up with pronouns. You are on a hiding to nothing if you try with someone you know very well. Eventually you will fuck up. If they have an underlying chip on their shoulder and think you don't believe you can't win. It will be a sin used against you as a stick to beat you with. It highlights the overly defensive weaponisation of pronouns and the unhealthy relationship dynamics it creates by changing power dynamics to one of guilt and shame rather than a healthy relationship of mutual respect.

Speeches 😂

Repeating earlier answer:

I did not claim I was fact checking. I am quite GenAI literate, thanks, and am very aware of its limitations.
Given the confusing amount of different entries on this thread I provided prompts which would highlight the key points being raised in order to summarise them. It’s better than google at that.
There is often a knee jerk reaction to GenAI but is as useful a tool as many of the others we use here. It is not, of course, evidence, facts or a peer reviewed submission — and I did not claim it as such and was very clear of the source so folk could keep that in mind — but this is a thread entirely made up of mostly speculation and guesswork!!! So it can be helpful in those circs!

NC giving them what for! 💥

Thank you, but didn’t the SC ruling say that for the purposes of the Equality Act, female and male mean biologically female and biologically male, and that’s the binding precedent? Therefore the comments about changing rooms may be obiter, but the principle, which includes changing rooms and toilets etc, is that those words mean biological sex as recorded at birth, and that is legally binding.

And that will be difficult if not impossible to argue against.

JR

small whiiinge

I'm finding it useful for providing loose suggestions for structuring things, and introducing some unexpected random proposals.

I wouldn't ever use it for anything that relied on factual information, and anything it produces needs to be very carefully checked.

It can't seem to perform very basic logic. And glitches are likely to be amplified over time.

(The Herald missed out NC 's comments that JR has made personal attacks/ criticism of NC personally in both public in this hearing and privately - NC is factually correct about the public remarks in tribunal, as we know. )

From herald
2:07pm
Ms Cunningham said the potential consequences of "asymmetry of treatment" are simply not to be contemplated at this stage.
2:07pm
Ms Cunningham said that Ms Russell said her use of "ordinary language" is an interference with article six rights.
And yet all she asks the judge to do is ask Ms Cunningham to reflect.
"Quite a lot of tribunal time has been wasted in this way," Ms Cunningham adds.
2:05pm
While Ms Cunningham has no concern over Ms Russell's professionalism, the same cannot be said for how Ms Russell views her, she said.
She also accuses Ms Russell of engaging in "futile" objections on Ms Cunningham's use of pronouns for Dr Upton.

rapidly building to a large one. A speech if you will.

NC not having it

Has JR opened a can of worms ?

Trying to hold on to the calm talking to a small child tone

It is in fact JR who has beeen impugning NC's characater and professionalism.....and she doesn't even understand the heresy analogy.