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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

1000 replies

nauticant · 23/07/2025 21:35

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

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26
Paddingtonsmarmaladesandwiches · 24/07/2025 00:37

As I catch up on just how dreadful the criticism of KS has been today for her weaponised “kindness” and her handmaiden devotion to Teddy Upton’s sacred creed I do feel for what she must be experiencing. I expect total ridicule must be difficult to deal with. Then I remember what she knowingly and gleefully inflicted on Sandie and I magically don’t feel one ounce of compassion for her.

lcakethereforeIam · 24/07/2025 00:40

I bet at Police Scotland saner heads* are looking at this binfire and thinking 'thank fuck we dodged that bullet'.

*I'm willing to believe that there are some

ZippyPearlPeer · 24/07/2025 00:59

“Could **or any other legal bods answer a question for me please:
HYPOTHETICALLY IF NC has in the bundle some metadata evidence of the disputed email chain, when a witness says, "you can't prove it", is it procedure to say, "well yes actually I can - can everyone please refer to Doc. 345..." OR is she waiting for evidence of the IT Technician to dispute the witness's testimony?“
@JamMakingWannaBe I’m not sure if I’ve quoted from the last thread correctly.
As far as I know all evidence has to be disclosed and lodged with the Tribunal. NC could look to pull a smoking gun type email/document out of her back pocket, but she would need the J’s approval to do that, and JR would likely oppose. So she’d be running the risk that a key piece of evidence wouldn’t be allowed. If it was already in the bundle, then Fife should be aware of it, but every chance if it’s a 1,000+ bundle that something could be missed.
NC seems very skilled at putting enough to the witnesses to allow her to draw conclusions in her submissions in due course. Risk would be that KS manages to provide a reasonable explanation (or at least says something vaguely credible which JR could then put to the IT expert as an explanation). KS already seems to have shown she’s a less than credible witness…very interested in what the IT expert has to say….

FallinUltra · 24/07/2025 01:01

CrocsNotDocs · 24/07/2025 00:35

I’ve said it before- Dr Searle is afraid of Dr Upton. She has recognised that he is a very dangerous man who would turn on her in a moment and spout all kinds of accusations if she didn’t dance to his exact tune. That is why she is appeases him to the nth degree- time honoured technique of a woman “making nice” to a scary man. Sure, she’s also a fully paid up gender ideology cult member but if you look at her behaviour in the context of her being afraid of Dr Upton, it makes more sense.

He might also, as all narcissist are, be very good at ‘sucking up & kicking down’.

And Searle, in turn, may be a narcissist who, as most narcissists are, is very receptive to flattery. That would also fit with a vengeful desire to lash out at Sandie, who doesn’t strike me as the brown nosing kind.

Upton has been described as the kind of slimy eel who might well be highly astute in working out exactly what kind of flattery would work with his supervisor. -Perhaps she has teenage kids in the most ungrateful phase, and he praised her for her kindness and supportive skills, perhaps he praised her clinical skills, perhaps he even called her pretty. And she in turn could use him to demonstrate her kindness. Perhaps she has been accused by some of not being sufficiently kind.

They may be two malignant narcissists using each other, except he played her in the end, by being more malignant than her. She must be reeling tonight in disbelief, not yet able to accept that she, in her own mind an exceptionally intelligent woman, has been horribly naive.

ZippyPearlPeer · 24/07/2025 01:13

JK Rowling’s latest post on X has set me thinking on the very different experiences many woman who have complained about sexual or racial discrimination will have faced.

I highly doubt that if it had been a woman raising a complaint there would have been an email to 20+ consultants with a “we all support the woman” dictat, without anyone minimising to “oh but I’m sure Mr X didn’t mean any offence”… “are you sure you’ve not misunderstood/misinterpreted”.

I also suspect many woman wouldn’t report feeling “unsafe” based on a challenging conversation with a male colleague, lest they are labeled a trouble maker or have professional competency questioned if they are crying/upset at work. It is so common that woman aren’t likely to be believed or have their experience minimised that I suspect they’d be much less likely to have reported an incident in a similar vein.

That is another piece of the maddening pie, and such a glaring example that trans women are, in fact, not treated the same as woman. I just can’t see NHS Fife, unequivocally believing the hypothetical woman (maybe she’s Pete’s sister!) and taking such extreme lengths to protect her as has happened here.

UnlimitedBacon · 24/07/2025 01:14

What a day. I’d hate to be KS right now.

Firealarms · 24/07/2025 01:15

FallinUltra · 24/07/2025 01:01

He might also, as all narcissist are, be very good at ‘sucking up & kicking down’.

And Searle, in turn, may be a narcissist who, as most narcissists are, is very receptive to flattery. That would also fit with a vengeful desire to lash out at Sandie, who doesn’t strike me as the brown nosing kind.

Upton has been described as the kind of slimy eel who might well be highly astute in working out exactly what kind of flattery would work with his supervisor. -Perhaps she has teenage kids in the most ungrateful phase, and he praised her for her kindness and supportive skills, perhaps he praised her clinical skills, perhaps he even called her pretty. And she in turn could use him to demonstrate her kindness. Perhaps she has been accused by some of not being sufficiently kind.

They may be two malignant narcissists using each other, except he played her in the end, by being more malignant than her. She must be reeling tonight in disbelief, not yet able to accept that she, in her own mind an exceptionally intelligent woman, has been horribly naive.

Honestly I think you’re both reading too much into things and I question the armchair theories.

Having worked in a senior public sector position prone to legal action - I think at the time of events, the NHS was more concerned about Dr U bringing a tribunal claim against them, they were never concerned about SP bringing a tribunal claim as she was the perpetrator in their eyes. He was the one who made the formal complaint which is a precursor to ET action. If SP got in there first with her own formal complaint, perhaps the situation would have played out differently. But given the real sequence of events, SP was never considered a victim or a complainant, merely the source of the problem.

Therefore Kate Searle was simply showing support to Dr U to diminish any claims he may go on to make about being unsupported by the NHS. Trans rights were a trending topic and the NHS saw it as an area with risk. She then received a taste of success after her approach was being praised by her seniors, because she had reduced the risk of ET claims by Dr U. Once support started to diminish due to potential ET claims by SP, she then just crumbled under the pressure and did unethical things to cover herself as the heat was solely on her. It’s likely her seniors who initially praised her, began to distance themselves and place her as the sole decision maker.

in summary it’s not about how pretty anyone was, narcissists or teenage children. It’s as simple as KS being too simple minded to see the bigger picture. She thought the only way this could play out was Dr U being a victim then covered herself when she realised she went in too far.

irredeemablyperfidious · 24/07/2025 01:21

A question for Observers: are you still logging in 30 minutes before the Tribunal is due to start, as we were originally requested, or are you leaving it later?

nebulousMoose · 24/07/2025 01:25

2021x · 24/07/2025 00:17

Just wanted to share this here.

Brilliant film. So clearly and lucidly described, explains all aspects of the strange gender identity phenomenon and trans-fever gripping society. Thank you, worth watching more than once.

flummoxedlummox · 24/07/2025 01:25

@irredeemablyperfidious

10 minutes before, I'm sure the instructions said 30 minutes on the first day and then revert to the usual 10.

FatCyclist · 24/07/2025 01:45

This is hilarious. Apparently evil terfs target Mumsnet because new mums are too hormonally compromised & sleep deprived to be able to think rationally.

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1m75npa/wow_38_threads_for_nhs_fife_on_terfnet/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

BeLemonNow · 24/07/2025 01:58

@FannyCann Thanks for the Sandy "Day out in Court" post on last thread, I agree they are fab. I wonder if she went out and bought some extra clothes as a much deserved special treat/ pick me up.

DrPrunesqualer · 24/07/2025 02:12

FatCyclist · 24/07/2025 01:45

This is hilarious. Apparently evil terfs target Mumsnet because new mums are too hormonally compromised & sleep deprived to be able to think rationally.

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1m75npa/wow_38_threads_for_nhs_fife_on_terfnet/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Thanks for posting the link. I’ve never bothered with Reddit before and clearly it’s not worth looking again
What a pile of lies, jealousy and hate

ifIwerenotanandroid · 24/07/2025 02:18

FatCyclist · 24/07/2025 01:45

This is hilarious. Apparently evil terfs target Mumsnet because new mums are too hormonally compromised & sleep deprived to be able to think rationally.

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1m75npa/wow_38_threads_for_nhs_fife_on_terfnet/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Magnus Carlsen Smile GIF by Chess.com

I love the comment 'That's unusually insightful'.😂

So we're 'evil bastards' when we're not being bots, & we're all old women with new babies; but there is some hope that we can be de-radicalised.

YouCantProveIt · 24/07/2025 02:22

ZippyPearlPeer · 24/07/2025 00:59

“Could **or any other legal bods answer a question for me please:
HYPOTHETICALLY IF NC has in the bundle some metadata evidence of the disputed email chain, when a witness says, "you can't prove it", is it procedure to say, "well yes actually I can - can everyone please refer to Doc. 345..." OR is she waiting for evidence of the IT Technician to dispute the witness's testimony?“
@JamMakingWannaBe I’m not sure if I’ve quoted from the last thread correctly.
As far as I know all evidence has to be disclosed and lodged with the Tribunal. NC could look to pull a smoking gun type email/document out of her back pocket, but she would need the J’s approval to do that, and JR would likely oppose. So she’d be running the risk that a key piece of evidence wouldn’t be allowed. If it was already in the bundle, then Fife should be aware of it, but every chance if it’s a 1,000+ bundle that something could be missed.
NC seems very skilled at putting enough to the witnesses to allow her to draw conclusions in her submissions in due course. Risk would be that KS manages to provide a reasonable explanation (or at least says something vaguely credible which JR could then put to the IT expert as an explanation). KS already seems to have shown she’s a less than credible witness…very interested in what the IT expert has to say….

It depends how disclosure was done. It’s usual to get the docs. They’re printed, someone uses a black pen to remove sensitive parts that aren’t relevant like patient names, the whole bundle is then photocopied and sent to Sandies lawyers and vice versa.

In large cases e discovery may transfer docs digitally with meta data but I suspect not the case here. Both sides won’t overshare as it were so will only give up when the Court orders them to do. (It’s an area of legal practice that’s improving all the time).

If she did get her hands on a doc with metadata it would already be disclosed and she would have put it to Kate Searle. If she wants to rely on the evidence or point she has to put it to the witness in person where possible.

I’m not 100% certain but I understand IT guy has been called by the defence (reported in the Courier earlier in the week) - probably to confirm to the Court that discovery was done properly this time. NC can ask him but any further requests may delay court etc so maybe not totally worth it for Sandies side.

NC doesn’t have to prove beyond reasonable doubt - she just has to prove that on the balance of possibilities it’s likely they are being less than thorough in their disclosure and it’s unlikely all 6 accidentally failed to disclose. KS’s you can’t prove it statement to NC was very suspect.

But having said all that - with this volcano exploding out of all sorts of fissures - I really don’t know quite what to expect.

Quite like the look of these HR folks. Cannot imagine how people were allowed to go against their advice. That would never fly where I work.

Firealarms · 24/07/2025 02:27

How long until the tribunal is over, are there many witnesses left?

irredeemablyperfidious · 24/07/2025 02:32

flummoxedlummox · 24/07/2025 01:25

@irredeemablyperfidious

10 minutes before, I'm sure the instructions said 30 minutes on the first day and then revert to the usual 10.

Thank you.

I checked the original email and the two attachments, and it’s not wholly clear. The email refers to the “Operational Note” mentioning 30 minutes, but that wasn’t one of the attachments.

Did you get something called that?

YouCantProveIt · 24/07/2025 05:32

Firealarms · 24/07/2025 02:27

How long until the tribunal is over, are there many witnesses left?

Evidence from witnesses until Monday close of play & two days for closing statements so finishes 30th July. But we’ve lost time with pre evidence close hearings each morning. Nauticant and/or Justabaker suggested the could delay closing statements to another time so no big trail delays. Let’s see.

hholiday · 24/07/2025 05:38

Caught up (during the insomniac hours). Thank you so much nauticant for all these threads - they are amazing and I am in awe of how you are able to keep on top of them. I love following them - it’s like being part of a crowd at a sports match, surrounded by excellent banter and everyone roaring on their team. I also wanted to thank the tribunal judge who contributed to the last thread - I thought that was so interesting and explained even more clearly why it was so important the isla bryson thing yesterday did not become an agreed fact, as we initially feared. It sounds like, if this goes to appeal, it would be very difficult to overturn that.

DrBlackbird · 24/07/2025 05:43

Bubblegumicecreamm · 24/07/2025 00:01

Narcissistic compassion is what you’ve picked up on

Thanks for pointing to a concept that I’ve not heard of, but which might help make sense of how and why people in progressive and putatively intelligent fields like education and healthcare were so successfully indoctrinated by gender ideologists. This would be followed by narcissistic rage when the (selective) ‘compassion’ is challenged. And all actions ultimately underpinned by a primal urge to control others using whatever means available.

DrBlackbird · 24/07/2025 05:50

One of Alex’s comments:

Is this idiocy genuine or merely performative?

Feels both genuine and performative.

Igneococcus · 24/07/2025 05:56

DrBlackbird · 24/07/2025 05:50

One of Alex’s comments:

Is this idiocy genuine or merely performative?

Feels both genuine and performative.

Yes, it can be, and indeed seems to be, both at the same time.

This is my favourite bit and I might have to use this phrase in future:
Maggie Chapman’s famous Chromosomes of Doubt

tableauvivant · 24/07/2025 06:26

ifIwerenotanandroid · 24/07/2025 02:18

I love the comment 'That's unusually insightful'.😂

So we're 'evil bastards' when we're not being bots, & we're all old women with new babies; but there is some hope that we can be de-radicalised.

Don't those hags have anything better to do?

I feel so left out because I'm a guy and therefore can't be a hag.

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