NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

I asked it recently who the PM of the UK currently is and it said Rishi!

Yes. It came across as unnecessarily antagonistic to call out JR in a question to a witness. Plus I think NC would look more likeable/reasonable if she does walk back slightly, won’t overall damage her presentation.

Nursing was always a job for nice middle class girls. In the old days before you needed a degree there were SRNs who wore blue trained for 3 years & tended to be middle class. Then there were SENs who wore green trained for 2 years & were working class or foreign.

And I didn't hear that AG had seen the bundle beforehand. She said she wasn't aware of KS emails until shed seen the bundle. But I thought that meant when she'd seen it today. Not that she's had hold of it for awhile.
Honestly I'm surprised any witnesses would be able to study it before giving their own testimony.

Others like KS have been caught out and I'd imagine she'd have been the first to go through the bundle if they were given access.

She must be knackered! I think she let herself be goaded by JRs interventions. Clearly the judge was annoyed by the interruptions rather than objections. She ain’t perfect shocker!!! And that’s ok.

Was it not also the case then that a nurse was expected to give up work when she married?

Sorry! Clearly I’m knackered too! Answer to a different quote. Doh.

There’s plenty of Reddit threads that are supportive on SP, the Scotland sub for example.

Plus if overall the NHS lose, the opinions of random redditors from this snapshot in time, won’t have any sort of lasting legacy.

Surely this was settled at the start - that the fact Upton is a man is the whole crux of the issue so must be spoken?

An AI summary is OK if you're knowledgeable and have checked it yourself.

Otherwise it could contain made-up nonsense mixed in with the facts.

Are you confident that ChatGPT has got this all right?

Yes. Oh fuck is about the size of it. Plus 🤮

Wow - I carry my phone, keys and maybe a lip balm if I'm feeling fancy.

The point is that NC made a pointed remark drected at JR. It is best to avoid doing this kind of thing if possible. And it was possible for NC to have avoided it.

I know misgendering is supposed to be the crime of the century, far worse than anything else, but this is all a bit ridiculous. Dr Upton only started calling himself a woman two years ago IIRC. Presumably everybody called him "he" up till then without an issue.

I think they are shown the bundle in advance so they know what documents they might be asked about. The job of cross is not to ambush witnesses.

The only witness statements in the bundle are from expert witnesses — accounts agreed and accepted by both counsels.

ChatGPT has only had data uploaded to mod-2023.

It was a very very oblique reference to the GLP claiming a huge win for having "forced" the EHRC to amend it's interim guidance to make it clearer that individual universal toilets were also acceptable. As a consolation prize, they (in the wider sense) can have both that and a resilement from the word "heresy" by NC. They're welcome.

On pronoun use, it’s interesting that NC never slips up and calls DU “she” despite everyone else in the room using f pronouns for him.

I bet if someone called round to my house and talked at me extensively about a mutual female friend or relative, but using male pronouns about them, that at no point would I slip up and join them in that error.

because when you know someone sex it’s not difficult to use correct pronouns. It’s only the poor sods doing mental gymnastics to avoid cancellation that can’t cope.

An Outwith from the judge

So there's the phrase "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel".

It's originally credited to Samuel Johnson in 1775.

In 1774, he printed The Patriot, a critique of what he viewed as false patriotism. On the evening of 7 April 1775, he made a famous statement: "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." The line was not, as is widely believed, about patriotism in general but rather what Johnson saw as the false use of the term "patriotism" by William Pitt, 1st Earl of Chatham (the prime minister) and his supporters. Johnson opposed most "self-professed patriots" in general but valued what he considered "true" patriotism.

What we see here is a similar example of telling someone they are 'unkind' in order to elicit a change in behaviour and loyalty to a particular set of values.

It needs not be an exercise in flag waving (but it is interesting to note the flag waving).

JR bringing it up at this point on day 4 of the second half of the hearing is very telling indeed.

It is the behaviour of a scoundrel at their last resort.

Pronouns are really tricky. Personally I subscribe to "pronouns are rohypnol". It doesnt come naturally to call someone who is clearly male she/her - especially if you are arguing that they shouldn't have been in the women's changing room. In real life I'd use someone's name and avoid pronouns where possible. That's probably very hard to do in a high pressure situation though.

And they got rid of the distinction and now have Health Care Assistants and graduate nurses…

Have they just renamed the distinction?

In simple terms issues which are determined by the higher courts (in England the High Court and Court of Appeal, across UK including Scotland the Supreme Court amongst others) become binding precedent or authority binding lower courts and tribunals unless they are overturned by a higher court on appeal, or a higher or equivalent court otherwise says that is wrong or decides another case differently on the same point. Higher courts may also make statements about the law in relation to matters which are NOT issues requiring determination in their particular case. Those comments or guidance are known as obiter dicta, things said in passing. They are not binding, ie lower courts don’t have to follow them, but may be persuasive. How persuasive they are depends on things like whether they were fully argued, the seniority of the court saying them, etc. FWC was not a case in which the issue of trans people in changing rooms and single sex spaces needed to be decided, so what the SC said about that is obiter. The ET does not have to follow it, but it is highly persuasive as it was not a comment said in passing, it was a matter which the SC gave considerable thought to and addressed a number of paragraphs to, and the SC is the highest court in the land. Almost everything they say, arguably, is persuasive.

JR is going to say SC in FWS did not determine anything about single sex spaces, NC is going to say ok they did not but they have very clear guidance which is highly persuasive and you ET will have to have very good reasons for not following that guidance.

Hope that explanation helps.

I just tested it with a question about current Scottish ministers (recent reshuffle) and it did get it right.

NC much better after some lunch.